Pre-Boiling water?

[Moog]

I love this site. So much to learn.

 

[fdsaasdf]

My 2c I use these (2 in series) at 1-3l/m in and although I haven't had the difference in chlorine)chloramine analysed, the beer I've made (with mineral additions to suit style) has been greatly improved over pre boiling straight Brisbane (north west Metro / Stafford) tap water. Also it tastes great and greatly improved as drinking water.

These filters are rated for 1500l life and the most budget option I could find as a reasonably new brewer.
Not sure if this is the actual listing I have but eBay search "caravan water filter" and there's a lot available around the place.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/222284213698

A few years ago I picked up a couple of similar filters in a trade that were unused, however I found I could still notice a slightly chlorine smell from the strike water. Definitely better than Brisbane tap water but not quite what I was after.

In a trade completely unrelated to brewing I picked up an under-bench housing and dual caravan filter housing with a bunch of spare unused cartridges for next to nothing. These seem to have removed the chlorine aroma from our water, though I've not done any water analysis.

The caravan filter is a pair of these, no idea what the retail price is: https://www.purewatersystems.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/PWS_BROCHURE_-CARAVAN_2016-1.pdf

 

[scomet]

better beer!

G’day Edd, ‘Better Beer’ on that we totally agree, the only reason Triumph Brewing Exists…. the taste(s) you described I had too.

Mark, Thanks for that explanation, I dont really understand it but; you can take 3 fairly nasty chemicals and end up with just salty water?

Tackling ‘water’ was one of my last serious challenges, since I got the ro unit (imho) my beer has improved quantitively, our water in WA sucks (for beer)

The only thing I want in my beer is what I put in there, TDS meter reading is now 1 from 160+! love it……

ps no chill, over-pitch Notto, RO++, aerate, keep an ‘eye’ on the temp, clean & sanitise like a mf, and now filter (since I retired and have the time) keg and start again :-}

 

[rude]

G’day Edd, ‘Better Beer’ on that we totally agree, the only reason Triumph Brewing Exists…. the taste(s) you described I had too.

Mark, Thanks for that explanation, I dont really understand it but; you can take 3 fairly nasty chemicals and end up with just salty water?

Tackling ‘water’ was one of my last serious challenges, since I got the ro unit (imho) my beer has improved quantitively, our water in WA sucks (for beer)

The only thing I want in my beer is what I put in there, TDS meter reading is now 1 from 160+! love it……

ps no chill, over-pitch Notto, RO++, aerate, keep an ‘eye’ on the temp, clean & sanitise like a mf, and now filter (since I retired and have the time) keg and start again :-}

What TDS meter did you purchase & where from
cheers Rude

 

[scomet]

G'

What TDS meter did you purchase & where from
cheers Rude

G'day rude, I purchased mine from here when I bought my ro unit, it measures the in and the out https://www.psifilters.com.au $28 ea. click on Chloromine systems and its in the extras, I got the $280 ro model, a bit $ but, I figured it was only the cost of three water tests. Give Tony a call I found them very 'easy' to do business with...

 

[rude]

Cheers thats where I got my R/O from no worries will have to order
for filters so will include

 

[rude]

I see they are $44.90 now for the dual one
Still once you have it you got it

 

[GregTheBrewer]

Guys, let's take a step back here. First of all Edd, as has been said, contact your local water authority to check what type of chlorinating agent they use. If you can't smell it, is more likely chloramine, and boiling won't help. But if it is chlorine, why add campden tabs or do a double boil? When I was doing extract brewing in the early days, I was not aware of the chlorine problem and had some shocking bandaid brews. But remember: chlorophenols are produced when residual chlorine interacts with phenols produced by the yeast. Anyone doing BIAB or full mash is boiling the wort anyway, so this will drive off any residual chlorine- no need for extra treatment! By the time you have finished your boil, there should not be any chlorine left to worry about

 

[Edd]

Greg, thanks for response. You can definitely smell the chlorine, I'm almost certain that its not Chloramine. I have done a bit of research and led to believe that its not used in our drinking water here. (Kinross, WA)

I'm laying a brew down this weekend and as I am unable to find Campden tablets anywhere in Perth this week (all stock is out through LHB suppliers!) I am going to try a pre-heat and leave water for 24hrs just as an experiment. I am coupling this with tackling my mash PH (with Bru'n water assistance) and adding Gypsum and Epsom to get the flavours to pop a bit more. I'm hoping a combination of these will get rid of the off taste that is certainly apparent in the background of my beer. Looking forward to posting the results in a few weeks time.

I get what is being said about others having different taste thresholds as some friends can taste it in my beer whereas others cannot see the problem. (Could be that they are A. Being too polite or B. They are used to dodgy beer!)

 

[MHB]

Guys, let's take a step back here. First of all Edd, as has been said, contact your local water authority to check what type of chlorinating agent they use. If you can't smell it, is more likely chloramine, and boiling won't help. But if it is chlorine, why add campden tabs or do a double boil? When I was doing extract brewing in the early days, I was not aware of the chlorine problem and had some shocking bandaid brews. But remember: chlorophenols are produced when residual chlorine interacts with phenols produced by the yeast. Anyone doing BIAB or full mash is boiling the wort anyway, so this will drive off any residual chlorine- no need for extra treatment! By the time you have finished your boil, there should not be any chlorine left to worry about

A case of too little knowledge leading to a very wrong answer.
Not all alcohols are made by the yeast, yeast makes a lot of Ethanol, a small amount of Methanol and traces of higher alcohols (Propanol, Butanol...)
Chloro-Phenol (clue in the name) or more properly 2,6-dichlorophenol is a basic Phenol (6 carbon ring with an Alcohol group attached) which has picked up a couple of Halogen atoms (usually Chlorine but could be Bromine, Iodine or Fluorine).
The Phenol can come from Water, Malt or Hops. Most of it is derived from the breakdown of Polyphenols (Tannins) found in Malt Husks and Hops, NOT from yeast derived alcohol.
So lots of good reasons to remove Chlorine from brewing water.
Mark

 

[MHB]

Greg, thanks for response. You can definitely smell the chlorine, I'm almost certain that its not Chloramine. I have done a bit of research and led to believe that its not used in our drinking water here. (Kinross, WA)
Snip
I get what is being said about others having different taste thresholds as some friends can taste it in my beer whereas others cannot see the problem. (Could be that they are A. Being too polite or B. They are used to dodgy beer!)

There is a genetic dispersal, some people are very sensitive to Chlorophenols, some people aren't.
I know I'm not very sensitive, so when I'm judging, if I can detect it other people might think its undrinkable.
Mark
BA Info worth bookmarking

 

[louistoo]

You can definitely smell if your tap water supply has high levels of chlorine. By no means is it like walking into a public swimming pool but the faint odour will certainly present itself. I find that I notice it if I pour a glass of water (fresh drawn, agitated water), it’s there ever so briefly but if you stick your beak into it and have a big old drag you wouldn’t notice.
As for the extent it’s affecting my beer, it’s hard to describe. I am getting a pronounced chemical aftertaste to the beer, not harsh or bitter but it lingers and builds up the more you sip, for some reason much more prevalent in beers with high levels of galaxy hops (yeah, figure that one out!). It’s far more notable the warmer the beer, it’s not quite ‘band-aid’ in mine but it’s not something you would want to pay for the privilege of trying. And as @Matplat has mentioned, it doesn’t f##king disappear!

Strange you should say that about galaxy, at a recent brewclub meet I brought along an amber hopped with half a kilo of wet galaxy (19l) and had a couple of comments about a faint background phenolic thing going on. Hence my renewed interest on chlorine/chloramine removal, my routine involves letting the strike water sit maybe overnight and an amount (variable!) of sodium metabisulphite added. I use Hobart water specifically Moonah.

 

[Edd]

Really? I wonder if others have had that. Maybe something about the amount of oils in Galaxy that may pronounce the effect of chlorophenol.
On a side note, I brewed yesterday with pre-boiled water and the added lactic, gypsum and epsoms for a hoppy pale ale. Might be coincidence but the hot break foam was an absolute beast! I had the cat travel basket on standby as it was certainly ready to climb out and head for the door...

 

[MHB]

Probably has more to do with the hops not being dried out properly, leads to all sorts of strange flavours.

If it's a really foamy boil, its more likely to be a "Blue Mash" name comes from the wort failing the Iodine test (still showing Blue colour) that shows the wort still has unconverted starch. Always makes the wort foam like a daemon.
Mark

 

[Edd]

I guess that’s a possibility, the krausen is looking good and thick too.

 

[ABG]

Metabisulphite is more effective, arguably a blend of Ascorbic Acid and Metabisulphite is even more effective than either one alone.
The big advantage of Potassium Metabisulphite is the tablet form (Campden) containing 0.44g.
So if you wanted remove 3mg/L, always good to ad some extra I would be looking at adding about double 6mg/l
Say 35L at 6mg/L = 210mg, each tablet contains 444mG, so half a tablet would be 222mg - close enough.
Cheap, easy to use and to get a fairly controlled dose at about 5c/brew.
Mark

Oh
I went looking for Ascorbic Acid at a chemist, they had some but it was really expensive, the stuff in the health food section was Sodium Ascorbate, I'm not sure of the Cl scavenging properties of Sodium Ascorbate, But it has a different molecular mass so the dose rate wont be the same just worth being sure what you are getting when you ask for Vitamin C.
M

Just went and read the entry on NaMBS in Wikipedia it says 1 tablet will treat 75L, so about the same 1/2 a tablet in 37.5L...
M

How much ascorbic acid would you recommend adding in addition to the 1/2 a campden tablet Mark (assuming you're treating 37.5L)? Also, do you filter your water in any way?

Finally for those that do filter their water, how do you adjust your water profile in Brewsmith, or program of your choice (i.e. how do you know how much Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4 & HCO3 your filter is taking out)?

 

[goatchop41]

How much ascorbic acid would you recommend adding in addition to the 1/2 a campden tablet Mark (assuming you're treating 37.5L)?

A local pro brewer who claims to have a background in chemistry gave me these numbers for ascorbic acid:
PPM of chloramine X 2.5g per 1000L of water = amount of ascorbic acid that you need to add.
Your local water authority should be able to give you the PPM of chloramine - if it's a range, then just use the highest number. Around my way the highest is usually 3PPM.
So, for 37.5L with a PPM of 3 for chloramine, you would need 3X2.5=7.5g per 1000L, which comes to 0.28g in 37.5L (7.5g / 1000 X 37.5 = 0.28g).

 

[goatchop41]

You'll definitely need speed dealer scales for measuring it out...ahem, I mean hop and water addition measuring scales

 

[ABG]

You'll definitely need speed dealer scales for measuring it out...ahem, I mean hop and water addition measuring scales

Just ordered myself a set. No doubt the drug squad will come busting down my door soon and be very interested in all the white powder I've got lying around.