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Pre-Boiling water?

Discussion in 'Water' started by Edd, 7/5/18.

 

  1. Edd

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    Posted 11/5/18
    You can definitely smell if your tap water supply has high levels of chlorine. By no means is it like walking into a public swimming pool but the faint odour will certainly present itself. I find that I notice it if I pour a glass of water (fresh drawn, agitated water), it’s there ever so briefly but if you stick your beak into it and have a big old drag you wouldn’t notice.
    As for the extent it’s affecting my beer, it’s hard to describe. I am getting a pronounced chemical aftertaste to the beer, not harsh or bitter but it lingers and builds up the more you sip, for some reason much more prevalent in beers with high levels of galaxy hops (yeah, figure that one out!). It’s far more notable the warmer the beer, it’s not quite ‘band-aid’ in mine but it’s not something you would want to pay for the privilege of trying. And as @Matplat has mentioned, it doesn’t f##king disappear!
     
  2. Quokka42

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    Posted 11/5/18
    If you can smell the chlorine it is probably good news, if it means they are using gaseous chlorine. In this case pre-boiling will remove it, but where I am I find the post-mash boil is enough. Get a water report for where you are - if it is chlorinated with gas, no problem. If the use chloramines you want to use campden tablets, but be aware sulphites cause problems for many with sinusitis and other allergies.
     
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  3. MHB

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    Posted 11/5/18
    I disagree with nearly all of that.
    Chlorophenols can form in the mash, quite a lot of the total phenol content of the wort comes from grain husks, mixing hot water and grain provides ideal conditions for their formation. Sure the hotter it is the more Cl is ejected but even a full boil takes a fair while to get hid of chlorine.
    Different people have different sensitivity to Chlorophenols some find it off-putting at very low concentrations, others are fairly blind to it, you might not be very sensitive - that doesn't mean there aren't Chlorophenols and that other brewers/consumers wouldn't taste it.
    If you use the right amount of Metabisulphite it is consumed it wont be there to offend anyone's sensitivities (a case of 1+1=0). Shure if you add way too much it will cause problems, but the same applies to most of the other ingredients in brewing.
    Mark
     
  4. Edd

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    Posted 12/5/18
    I’m doing BIAB so usually dealing with about 30 odd litres in total. I saw from your earlier post @MHB that it seems 1/2 tablet will do roughly 38l. For the sake of it, would it be a good idea for me to go 1/3? I’m unsure as to whether it would make much difference for the sake of faffing about trying to split a tablet into 3rds.
     
  5. wynnum1

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    Posted 12/5/18
    Vitamin C also to neutralize chlorine how are the campden tablets marked can they be divided into quarters can both be used together Vitamin C and campden tablets or do they react could use both in smaller amounts .
     
  6. MHB

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    Posted 12/5/18
    As mentioned earlier a combination of Ascorbic Acid* and Metabisulphite works better than either alone, tho metabisulphite is better than Ascorbic Acid alone.
    Ascorbic Acid < Metabisulphite < (Ascorbic Acid + Metabisulphite)

    *Just note when people say Vitamin C, they are often referring to an Ascorbic Acid salt (commonly Sodium Ascorbate), a bit like saying Sodium Chloride (common salt) is the same as Hydrochloric Acid (seriously wrong)
    It also reacts with other Acids in hot aqueous (wet) conditions, any excess is pretty much decomposed before the end of the boil.
    Half a tablet in 30L is less of an overdose than 1/3 of a tablet in 30L, I would stick with the half tablet and let any excess decompose later.
    Mark
     
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  7. scomet

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    Posted 12/5/18
    It is in parts of WA!

    I dont get this, put something else in (water) to take something out, change it yes but not remove, it has to be still in there in some form or another?
     
  8. Edd

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    Posted 12/5/18
    Remove/change, I think it’s the same thing we are talking about. For me I like to think of it as ‘removing’ the chlorine, for simplicity’s sake. I am a self confessed chemistry duffer so would have no idea how the chlorine is ‘changed’ but it leads to the same outcome in my eyes - better beer!
     
  9. MHB

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    Posted 12/5/18
    Well sort of, if you add bleach or Sodium Hydroxide to a Cyanide solution (both things that you don't want in water) you end up with Common Salt (NaCl), Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen gas and water - all a lot easier to live with than either of the precursors!
    For Chlorine removal it goes like this (Sodium and Potassium are pretty interchangeable)
    upload_2018-5-12_13-6-18.png
    So the residues are a bit of Sulphuric and Hydrochloric Acids and a touch of Sodium/Potassium Sulphate.
    All of which (at low concentrations) wont have any negative effect on beer/brewing, in fact will just lower the pH a touch (not enough involved for that to matter), but the Chlorine will.
    Mark
     
  10. garage_life

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    Posted 12/5/18
    My 2c I use these (2 in series) at 1-3l/m in and although I haven't had the difference in chlorine)chloramine analysed, the beer I've made (with mineral additions to suit style) has been greatly improved over pre boiling straight Brisbane (north west Metro / Stafford) tap water. Also it tastes great and greatly improved as drinking water.

    These filters are rated for 1500l life and the most budget option I could find as a reasonably new brewer.
    Not sure if this is the actual listing I have but eBay search "caravan water filter" and there's a lot available around the place.

    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/222284213698
     
  11. Moog

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    Posted 12/5/18
    I love this site. So much to learn.
     
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  12. fdsaasdf

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    Posted 12/5/18
    A few years ago I picked up a couple of similar filters in a trade that were unused, however I found I could still notice a slightly chlorine smell from the strike water. Definitely better than Brisbane tap water but not quite what I was after.

    In a trade completely unrelated to brewing I picked up an under-bench housing and dual caravan filter housing with a bunch of spare unused cartridges for next to nothing. These seem to have removed the chlorine aroma from our water, though I've not done any water analysis.

    The caravan filter is a pair of these, no idea what the retail price is: https://www.purewatersystems.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/PWS_BROCHURE_-CARAVAN_2016-1.pdf
     
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  13. scomet

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    Posted 13/5/18
    G’day Edd, ‘Better Beer’ on that we totally agree, the only reason Triumph Brewing Exists…. the taste(s) you described I had too.

    Mark, Thanks for that explanation, I dont really understand it but; you can take 3 fairly nasty chemicals and end up with just salty water?

    Tackling ‘water’ was one of my last serious challenges, since I got the ro unit (imho) my beer has improved quantitively, our water in WA sucks (for beer)

    The only thing I want in my beer is what I put in there, TDS meter reading is now 1 from 160+! love it……

    ps no chill, over-pitch Notto, RO++, aerate, keep an ‘eye’ on the temp, clean & sanitise like a mf, and now filter (since I retired and have the time) keg and start again :-}
     
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  14. rude

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    Posted 14/5/18
    What TDS meter did you purchase & where from
    cheers Rude
     
  15. scomet

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    Posted 15/5/18
    G'
    G'day rude, I purchased mine from here when I bought my ro unit, it measures the in and the out https://www.psifilters.com.au $28 ea. click on Chloromine systems and its in the extras, I got the $280 ro model, a bit $ but, I figured it was only the cost of three water tests. Give Tony a call I found them very 'easy' to do business with...
     
  16. rude

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    Posted 15/5/18
    Cheers thats where I got my R/O from no worries will have to order
    for filters so will include
     
  17. rude

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    Posted 15/5/18
    I see they are $44.90 now for the dual one
    Still once you have it you got it
     
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  18. GregTheBrewer

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    Posted 15/5/18
    Guys, let's take a step back here. First of all Edd, as has been said, contact your local water authority to check what type of chlorinating agent they use. If you can't smell it, is more likely chloramine, and boiling won't help. But if it is chlorine, why add campden tabs or do a double boil? When I was doing extract brewing in the early days, I was not aware of the chlorine problem and had some shocking bandaid brews. But remember: chlorophenols are produced when residual chlorine interacts with phenols produced by the yeast. Anyone doing BIAB or full mash is boiling the wort anyway, so this will drive off any residual chlorine- no need for extra treatment! By the time you have finished your boil, there should not be any chlorine left to worry about
     
  19. Edd

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    Posted 18/5/18
    Greg, thanks for response. You can definitely smell the chlorine, I'm almost certain that its not Chloramine. I have done a bit of research and led to believe that its not used in our drinking water here. (Kinross, WA)

    I'm laying a brew down this weekend and as I am unable to find Campden tablets anywhere in Perth this week (all stock is out through LHB suppliers!) I am going to try a pre-heat and leave water for 24hrs just as an experiment. I am coupling this with tackling my mash PH (with Bru'n water assistance) and adding Gypsum and Epsom to get the flavours to pop a bit more. I'm hoping a combination of these will get rid of the off taste that is certainly apparent in the background of my beer. Looking forward to posting the results in a few weeks time.

    I get what is being said about others having different taste thresholds as some friends can taste it in my beer whereas others cannot see the problem. (Could be that they are A. Being too polite or B. They are used to dodgy beer!)
     
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  20. MHB

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    Posted 18/5/18
    A case of too little knowledge leading to a very wrong answer.
    Not all alcohols are made by the yeast, yeast makes a lot of Ethanol, a small amount of Methanol and traces of higher alcohols (Propanol, Butanol...)
    Chloro-Phenol (clue in the name) or more properly 2,6-dichlorophenol is a basic Phenol (6 carbon ring with an Alcohol group attached) which has picked up a couple of Halogen atoms (usually Chlorine but could be Bromine, Iodine or Fluorine).
    The Phenol can come from Water, Malt or Hops. Most of it is derived from the breakdown of Polyphenols (Tannins) found in Malt Husks and Hops, NOT from yeast derived alcohol.
    So lots of good reasons to remove Chlorine from brewing water.
    Mark
    upload_2018-5-19_6-8-34.png
     

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