Pilsner - Question about racking

[r055c0]

Hi All,

Having recently got off my ever expanding backside and set up a temp controlled fridge I felt it was time to do a pilsner. I've pretty much followed Boston's recipe and I'm comfortable with most of the steps, however I was wondering about racking to secondary. When I brew an ale I usually leave it in primary and then rack to secondary after 4 days, regardless of the gravity at the time. I do this to get it off the cake of old hops and trub that always manages to make it into the fermenter (I no chill and I aerate by shaking the crap out of my cube), leaving plenty of yeast in suspension to complete the fermentation. The big benefit of this for me is 10 or so days later when I crash chill and then keg / bottle there is a pretty clean yeast cake at the bottom of the fermenter that I can store for later without having to worry overly about trying to wash trub & hops debris out of it.

This is all very well for top fermenting ale yeasts but will the method work on a pilsner using Wyeast Labs #2278? I would be leaving it in secondary for 3 and a half weeks.

 

[lmccrone]

I wouldn't be racking at all, for ales or lager's. I recently did a pils and racked to a secondary after two weeks and it had a real green apple taste, it was suggested to me this may be because i took it off the yeast too early so when i did my next brew a dunkel i left it on the yeast for 6 weeks and it was much, much better. Also less chance of an infection the less you handle it and less work!

As far as re using the yeast from a secondary fermentation (if you do it) I understand this is also bad news as you are selecting for the yeast that was less effective in converting sugar to alcohol and less flocculant.

Cheers

 

[slcmorro]

Plenty of people successfully rack both ales and lagers (there is no 'r' in lager - pet hate), and swear by it. If you're going to do it, try to minimise splashing as much as possible, and ensure absolutely everything is sanitised. I'm talking the secondary fermenter, the hoses and even make sure your hands and arms are clean. I wash my hands and arms in a starsan mix I have sitting aside in a sealed container.

Repitching onto a yeast cake has been done, and is continually done with success. I often wash and repitch the same yeast from a previous batch also as do many others. As with everything, sanitation is the key. Second to that, minimising oxidation is probably the second most important factor when it comes to racking.

I personally don't rack to secondary before 2 weeks are up anyway, so I'm not sure what effect you might be creating with racking after just 4 days. You *might* be essentially 'underpitching after pitching' by removing the vast majority of the yeast from the beer perhaps. I know there's still some in suspension, but whether or not that's enough to effectively finish the fermentation process off, I don't know. Seems kinda pointless to me, to pitch an adequate amount of yeast to begin with, and then take over half of it away while the job is still in progress.

Edit: 4 days.

 

[lmccrone]

r? what r?

Also I'm not saying you cant re-use the yeast cake, just the yeast from the primary fermentation might be a better bet. Good point about the oxidation though, another good reason not to rack to a secondary.

 

[slcmorro]

I see what you did there...

 

[nathan_madness]

If you are racking anything to a secondary or even to your keg purge the vessel with CO2 first and then rack in to it to prevent oxidisation.

 

[Bribie G]

15 minutes ago I just prepared my Aussie Premium Lager for bottling and kegging in a couple of days, just sat down so I was interested to see your post.

I used to be a mad racker but after a visit to Bacchus Brewing I'm now a one-fermenter brewer. My Lager went as follows:

Pitch at 11 degrees, ferment for a week then let it rise gradually to 17 for a D rest. edit; around 12 days overall in primary.

Take down to -1 over four days.

Leave 10 days. Despite using BrewBright (admittedly a bit old, I restocked yesterday at MHBs) there still seemed to be some chill haze so I dosed with some Polyclar slurry. To do this I lifted off the clingwrap, poured in the slurry, stirred gently and put on new clingwrap. Then I flushed the headspace with CO2 from my naked gas line out of the kegerator, resealed the clingwrap with the O ring and stashed the brew away for another couple of days at -1

The same recipe came third in the NSW State lager category but was criticized for some possible oxidation, and I was advised to be more careful in cold side operations in future.
So I've re brewed this batch to keg most of a keg and run off six bottles for the Nationals coming up in a few weeks. This time I'll use CO2 flushed bottles and squeeze them on capping to ensure no O2 in headspace.
The point of the last three sentences being that exposure to oxygen with a delicately flavoured lager can stand out like the dogs' if it causes oxygenation in the brew. The judges could clearly pick it.

Good reason not to rack. Also as you say, on kegging or bottling day you have a nice yummy yeast cake for future brews.

 

[r055c0]

I always ensure everything is sanitised (including me), my hose reaches all the way to the bottom of my secondary fermenter to remove any splashing and I always fill the vessel with CO2 before racking. I'm not worried about the process of racking, more just interested to hear theories about how the method would affect the beer given the different properties of the yeast. Most of my ales are about 90% fermented after 4 days so I haven't had the issue of under pitching after pitching.

I've never had any off flavours after racking and have been racking the vast majority of my ales (the only exceptions being wits & saisons) for a few years now and with regards to using this method to recycle yeast I've used this method with no ill effects for about a year now, have currently got a pale ale in the keg with a "5th generation" of US-05 that fermented absolutley normally.

 

[Bribie G]

Ales seem to be more immune to oxidisation for some reason, probably their more fruity, malty and hoppy nature. With most lagers you don't really have anything to hide behind. However the flushing with CO2 would probably cut out nearly all the risk in your case, if you are kegging and flush the keg as well, you should be fine.

 

[r055c0]

Cheers Bribie G, hadn't considered the fragility of lagers (lages slcmorro?) as opposed to ales.

 

[slcmorro]

LOLOLOL

Yes, Lages dammit

 

[manticle]

If it's purely to reduce sediment, rack to bottle prime or just before kegging. Definitely wouldn't do it 4 days in.

I understand you are also after re-usable yeast but there are better ways to get this.

IF you must rack before terminal gravity, rack while the yeast is still healthy and active but has done most of its work (- say 1020 for an estimated 1010 finish) and allow decent conditioning time to ensure limited acetaldehyde and diacetyl. Add active yeast if diacetyl is present in obnoxious amounts following this process.

Like Bribie I used to rack all the time at about 3/4 gravity but I haven't for a while. I rack to bottle prime and I rack after conditioning IF I wish to condition the beer for more than 2-3 weeks. In most cases I think it's unnecessary.

 

[r055c0]

The reusable yeast is a perk but not the main reason I do it, and I've certainly retrieved yeast from primary before (more work to seperate it from the trub & hops debris but there is stuff all on telly these days so it's not like I don't have enough time to do it), the main reason I have done it in the past is to get the beer off the trub & hops so I don't get any off flavours from them. Having said that I've no idea if I actually would get off flavours from the trub etc so I could be doing a bunch of extra work cleaning etc for no good reason...

 

[Ross]

The reusable yeast is a perk but not the main reason I do it, and I've certainly retrieved yeast from primary before (more work to seperate it from the trub & hops debris but there is stuff all on telly these days so it's not like I don't have enough time to do it), the main reason I have done it in the past is to get the beer off the trub & hops so I don't get any off flavours from them. Having said that I've no idea if I actually would get off flavours from the trub etc so I could be doing a bunch of extra work cleaning etc for no good reason...

....that you are

 

[manticle]

IF you are intending to leave the beer to condition post fermentation for an extended period in warmer conditions then in my experience you have a chance of developing yeasty flavours in your final beer. By extended periods I mean at least 3 weeks (and the off flavours are not in any way guaranteed. More than a month (post ferment, not entire ferment) then definitely consider it (or at least get the fermenter into cold storage) but by then the yeast has done its job. This is based on my personal experience, backed up by some research/theory.

You do run a very real risk of generating off flavours by separating the beer from ample, healthy yeast too early by doing what you are suggesting. This risk is much greater than off flavours from trub in a normal, healthy fermentation.

 

[Ross]

My answer was based on the ro55o's process which is 2 weeks all up. I personally wouldn't be concerned up to 4 weeks at ferment temps & if crash chilling I wouldn't have concerns about leaving longer.


Cheers Ross

 

[manticle]

My response was not to you Ross.

I essentially agree with you. I'm elaborating on times when I think racking CAN be appropriate and suggesting it is fairly fruitless and possibly detrimental at all others. For the purposes of bulk priming or extended conditioning it can work and be worth the effort but in other circumstances it is not*.

*Based on my experience as a once racker.

 

[r055c0]

Hmmm... looks like I'll be freeing up a couple of fermenters usually reserved for racking, guess I'll have to brew more beer?

 

[manticle]

Shit.

 

[TheWiggman]

I rack as well based on some advice from a brewer at a store years ago, and I do it now more out of habit than anything else. Reading above I think I'm wasting my time.

1. Ferment until FG is reached for 3 days
2. Transfer from one wort to another via tube using gravity (no stirring)
3. Leave for a period in the fridge of a week or two. I've now learnt this serves no purpose for ales
4. Transfer to keg, put leftovers in bottles using carbonation drops

Should I skip steps 2 - 3 altogether? If conditioning lagers just leave it in the fermenter and drop the temp as Bribie G suggested?