Pilsner Feedback

[manticle]

Looks fine although I'd shorten 63 rest to 10-20 mins.

Yes to slow raise in temp or not at all. If you pitch loads of healthy yeast, you probably won't need to. Some strains are more prone than others - danish lager from wyeast is very clean for example, munich lager tends to push out more vdk (in my experience anyway). Taste and see how much honey or butter you perceive. There are also simple vdk tests you can do to guage the final levels.

 

[razz]

BKbrews, on the fermenting schedule you only need to lift the temp a few degrees for a D rest, and that's only if it needs a D rest. You are correct on running the risk of the wort fermenting out whilst trying to get to 18 degrees, and if you have pitched properly the wort should drop from 1.020 to TG in about 24 hours.
As far as leaving it at 1 degree goes I would get it there and if you are happy with the clarity, keg it and put it away until your return, no need to wait a week although it won't hurt.

 

[BKBrews]

Looks fine although I'd shorten 63 rest to 10-20 mins.

Yes to slow raise in temp or not at all. If you pitch loads of healthy yeast, you probably won't need to. Some strains are more prone than others - danish lager from wyeast is very clean for example, munich lager tends to push out more vdk (in my experience anyway). Taste and see how much honey or butter you perceive. There are also simple vdk tests you can do to guage the final levels.

a 20min rest at 63 would mean my total mash time is only 55min (5 + 20 + 30) + a 10min mashout? I read that you're best to mash pilsner malt for 90min, or is that outdated with the modern modified malts?

 

[manticle]

You might be thinking of boil time (due to smm/dms - still less of an issue with modern malts).

Look up hochkurz mash.

 

[Blind Dog]

Only thing I'd add to the advice above is to possibly rethink the hops. IMO, they've got a real dry white wine / edge of sour / tart gooseberry flavour, particularly used late which need something to balance them or they're overpowering and fairly one dimensional.

Mind you, taste is always subjective and you might just love it

 

[BKBrews]

Only thing I'd add to the advice above is to possibly rethink the hops. IMO, they've got a real dry white wine / edge of sour / tart gooseberry flavour, particularly used late which need something to balance them or they're overpowering and fairly one dimensional.

Mind you, taste is always subjective and you might just love it

What do you recommend?

I have:
- Galaxy
- Amarillo
- Simcoe
- Mosaic
- Cascade
- Waimea
- Hallertau Blanc

I must say, I did like the sound of these hops when I bought them and always planned on using them in my first lager. Maybe I should try a more traditional pilsner hop schedule and remove the late additions.

Manticle - I like the hochkurz method for its simplicity. I think I will go for a simple 30min @ 63, 45min @ 70, 15min mash out at 75.

 

[clickeral]

I just put a pilsner on and used Saaz

 

[manticle]

What do you recommend?

I have:
- Galaxy
- Amarillo
- Simcoe
- Mosaic
- Cascade
- Waimea
- Hallertau Blanc

I must say, I did like the sound of these hops when I bought them and always planned on using them in my first lager. Maybe I should try a more traditional pilsner hop schedule and remove the late additions.

Manticle - I like the hochkurz method for its simplicity. I think I will go for a simple 30min @ 63, 45min @ 70, 15min mash out at 75.

For new world, I reckon probably mosaic would suit pils best from that list

 

[Rocker1986]

I use a Hochkurz mash schedule in my pilsners, and I also use that Brulosophy quick lager fermentation schedule because I really don't want my brew fridge tied up for ****** 2 months lagering one batch. The beers are good at kegging time but they do benefit from more time spent cold in the keg, so when I can I'm gonna get another fridge for storing full kegs. At the moment they just sit at room temp for 5 or 6 weeks before being re-chilled, carbed and tapped.

 

[labels]

Flipping through this thread, there are certainly a lot of differing opnions.

I brew a lot of lagers, I'm drinking a crystal clear crispy pilsner right now and they are easy to brew but don't over complicate things. Your recipe is fine. Adding a little Calcium Chloride is a good suggestion but not necessary. There is no need to add any acid, you've got a little acidulated in as it is. The buffering effect of the mash will limit your pH in any case.

I would avoid the acid/protein rest altogether, all that will do is kill off the head on your beer and you're using a fully modified malt in any case. A mid range sach rest at 66C is perfect for lagers. Then pump it 71C for 20 minutes before sparging.

Use a big active starter, that's been suggested and is good advice. Ferment near the top end of the temperature range for the yeast strain - not near the bottom. Your beer will still be fault free and ester free. Ferment too low and fermentation is sluggish and the yeast can produce more acetaldehyde than it can easily convert at the end of fermentation. Before fermentation is finished, usually just as the krausen starts to fall, pump the temp up to 18C and hold it there for a few days - 72 hours is fine and the krausen will completely disappear. You can drop it back to 12C pretty quickly but slowly after that down to 0C

Late hopping can add grassy and astringent flavours to a lager, my last addition is usually at 40 minutes. Also best to stick with lager hops like Hallertau or similar. Use finings in the kettle and you can add finings when the beer is cold as well. Gelatine and PVPP added to the fermenter before lagering is good so stir it in when the beer is at 0C and hold it there for 5 days or so. Then keg hold a few more days, pour off the cloudy first glass or two and you will have a beer rivalling anything commercial in flavor, aroma and clarity.

 

[BKBrews]

Wow. Some great advice in there. Thank you.

I think you're right, being my first lager, I might just keep it simple. 66 degrees for 60 + mash out.

I'll look at my hop schedule again tonight and move my additions even further back.

Now, I got my yeast this morning and it was manufactured on 08/01/2017. So using the 1.75x Pro Brewer setting on brewers friend, I require 499 billion cells for a 1.044 26L wort (I decided to lower the SG a little). With my 83% viability WLP802, I will get 502 billion cells in a 3L 1.035 starter using the braukeiser stirplate method, so pretty much bang on. Now to just work out how I'm going to aerate this sucker!!

 

[Blind Dog]

What do you recommend?

I have:
- Galaxy
- Amarillo
- Simcoe
- Mosaic
- Cascade
- Waimea
- Hallertau Blanc

I must say, I did like the sound of these hops when I bought them and always planned on using them in my first lager. Maybe I should try a more traditional pilsner hop schedule and remove the late additions.

Manticle - I like the hochkurz method for its simplicity. I think I will go for a simple 30min @ 63, 45min @ 70, 15min mash out at 75.

Of the hops you have, I've used both Amarillo and Mosaic in pilsners (separately) and can recommend either; Amarillo probably just edged it for my tastes.

You can get at decent indication of a hops flavour and aroma if you dry hop with circa 1g of that hop in a standard bottle of fairly bland beer (chill bottle; open and add hop pellets; reseal with new crown cap; let sit warmish for a few days; chill to serving temp, but not too cold; open bottle and carefully pour a sample of beer). It won't be entirely accurate compared to using that hop in your own brews, but I've found its a lot more helpful than hop descriptions on packets. You can also mix samples to see what hop combos might work.

 

[Rocker1986]

I usually chuck a 15 minute addition of Saaz into my pilsners (along with earlier additions of it at FWH and 80 mins) and don't get grassy flavours from it, so either they aren't there in my batches or my tastebuds are ****. :lol: With a flame out stand of 20 minutes and no-chilling it probably acts more like a 25 minute addition though. I dunno, but whatever the case, I don't find this flavour in them so I'm happy to keep doing it.

 

[clickeral]

My one fermenting away at 12C

Lots of trub :S

 

[labels]

I usually chuck a 15 minute addition of Saaz into my pilsners (along with earlier additions of it at FWH and 80 mins) and don't get grassy flavours from it, so either they aren't there in my batches or my tastebuds are ****. :lol: With a flame out stand of 20 minutes and no-chilling it probably acts more like a 25 minute addition though. I dunno, but whatever the case, I don't find this flavour in them so I'm happy to keep doing it.

I would honestly say that using a no chill method, the hop addition is effectively going far more than a 15 minute addition. Saaz hops are 'the' most well known for their grassy flavours with late additions - plenty of info in the interweb here. But whatever, if it works for you - don't change.

 

[labels]

Just to add more information that I hope is not too confusing. The 71C rest at the end of the mash serves as a glyco-protein rest and the post below is mine copied from another forum I subscribe to. 71C also acts as a sort of mash out.

<quote> Last couple of beers I made, I've been playing with a glyco protein rest at 71C for 15 minutes.
The purpose of this rest is to make proteins more water soluble which increases beer foam and foam density and also foam adhesion. There is not a lot of available information on this particular mash rest as practically all information points to enzymes that break down starch and of course, the protein rest at around 45C.

Nevertheless, I was keen to see if this actually worked. The results are, that it does actually work, in fact, the results are very surprising. Comparing two beers I made on the same day with similar grain bills (but different hop bills), The one with the glyco protein rest produces a thick, dense foam head that lasts to the last mouthful and leaves dense lacing down the glass - I'll get some pics up here later. The one without is just an ordinary level of foam.

If anyone here has problems with foam formation/retention/density I would recommend trying this. I have used small amounts of wheat malt in the past to help increase foam but this method beats it hands down.

I am keen to hear other brewer's experiences so please post if you have anything positive to add. </quote>

 

[manticle]

I do mine at 72 but find it does indeed give a dense, mousse like, long lasting head. Bookended with a short 55 deg rest, it is excellent.

Won't do much to 'mash out' your alpha though as far as I understand. Need upwards of about 75 to send that out of action rapidly (certainly some denaturing still happening at 71, just slower).

 

[labels]

I do mine at 72 but find it does indeed give a dense, mousse like, long lasting head. Bookended with a short 55 deg rest, it is excellent.

Won't do much to 'mash out' your alpha though as far as I understand. Need upwards of about 75 to send that out of action rapidly (certainly some denaturing still happening at 71, just slower).

Yes, I agree with you on that one. They reckon 70-72C for the Glyco rest and of course you're right on in saying that Alpha-amylase is still active at 71C although it is pushing the upper end.

I guess it really is working out what you want to achieve and making the best compromise based on what you want as the end result. I always work my recipes and methology backwards from a set goal and find it's the best way of ending up close to what you want.

 

[BKBrews]

Very interesting.

Unfortunately for me, someone broke into my garage today while I was at work and stole a tonne of my brewing equipment, so I will not be putting this one down on the weekend! No stir plate, no salts, no thermometers, no cleaner, no steriliser.... nothing!

 

[labels]

Very interesting.

Unfortunately for me, someone broke into my garage today while I was at work and stole a tonne of my brewing equipment, so I will not be putting this one down on the weekend! No stir plate, no salts, no thermometers, no cleaner, no steriliser.... nothing!

That's a horrible thing to happen. I hope your insurance coughs-up and you return to this thread again.