Pilsen Profile from RO

[mattjm]

2.4 is spot on with vinegar though isnt it? can it be that it is struggling to get a read on the water because it is actually to pure, I read somewhere this can be the case with cheaper meters and ro. Pretty frustrated right now and really wanted to get the mash ph right.

 

[danestead]

I dont really see how I could be misusing either, the filter is water in water out and a waste water line and the meter is placed in the water up to the line and gives a reaing, am i missing something?

What model PH meter do you have and do you calibrate it prior to each day of use? What is the accuracy of your meter (not resolution)?

I know that deionised or distilled water is hard to get an accurate PH from as there arent enough minerals in it which results in pretty much 0 buffering capacity hence easily influenced by other sources. Maybe your RO water is very low in minerals also and causeing the same sort of issues in getting a reading.

Edit: Also, where did you get your RO filter and what brand is it? Do you have a TDS meter to check that the RO filter is actually reducing the mineral content of your water?

Edit 2: How old is the probe in your PH meter? Have you tried testing the PH calibration solution to see how close it is measuring it?

 

[mattjm]

Thats the only conclusion I can come to, I need some distilled water to calibrate with the buffering solution as Im now not confident to assume my ro water cuts it. It doesn't have a brand name on the package (which may be a big part of the problem) just says PHtester.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/100-brand-new-digital-ph-meter-tester-0-14/162111412.html
accuracy and resolution both .1.

 

[danestead]

Just measured my Perth water with my Hanna 98128. 0.05 accuracy but not calibrated today. Last calibrated last brew 2 weeks ago.

Tap 6.23
RO 7.10
RO waste 6.9 but kept going up slowly over many minutes. Not sure why.

 

[danestead]

Thats the only conclusion I can come to, I need some distilled water to calibrate with the buffering solution as Im now not confident to assume my ro water cuts it. It doesn't have a brand name on the package (which may be a big part of the problem) just says PHtester.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/100-brand-new-digital-ph-meter-tester-0-14/162111412.html
accuracy and resolution both .1.

Hmm $12. Im afraid to say that you arent going to get much more than a stab in the dark with a meter that cheap.

 

[mattjm]

unfortunately it was the only option they had at TWOC when I was there and it cost $30 so looks like money down the drain.
Bit unsure now where to go with all this I still want to brew tomorrow so Im thinking maybe just add 5g of Calcium sulphate to 30 l of the RO brew a simple pilsner without worrying about mash PH and see where I end up.
So my plight for super accuracy seems to have ended up at RO system $460, stir plate $80, beaker $60, scales to measure water additions $120, ph meter $30 = back to what I was doing before and chuck in a pinch of salt lol

 

[danestead]

unfortunately it was the only option they had at TWOC when I was there and it cost $30 so looks like money down the drain.
Bit unsure now where to go with all this I still want to brew tomorrow so Im thinking maybe just add 5g of Calcium sulphate to 30 l of the RO brew a simple pilsner without worrying about mash PH and see where I end up.
So my plight for super accuracy seems to have ended up at RO system $460, stir plate $80, beaker $60, scales to measure water additions $120, ph meter $30 = back to what I was doing before and chuck in a pinch of salt lol

Most people brew all grain without measuring the PH so dont stress too much. You will get beer and probably good beer at that.

It is interesting you paid $120 for the scales as I bought some 200g jewellery scale off ebay for about $7 plus some calibration weights and believe it or not, they are accurate to 0.01 of a gram. Unfortunately it sounds like you should have spent your money on the PH meter and saved on the scales. Ah well, we all live and learn!

 

[mattjm]

Yeah im sure I could have saved a heap on the scales and ro unit buying online but best I could manage on a friday in perth.

 

[Black n Tan]

You are going to need to add some acid (3% acidulated malt or thereabouts).

 

[Mr B]

Pffff i'm sure the money you are saving on buying beer far outweighs the equipment cost

 

[mattjm]

I think im a fair way off that point to date but hey its a passion not a money saving exercise.
Back to HBS for acid malt tomorrow then, was leaning towards just banging 5kg of pills malt into a low temp mash and see how it goes.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Yep. When PH accuracy really matters to you buy a decent one. I think I spent $180 with 2 bottles of calibration fluid.
Check the probe is calibrated in a shot glass of the fluid before each test. (Read all instructions and do it all properly).

 

[mattjm]

Do you find you calibrate very often if you ae checking prior to every test?

 

[manticle]

Pils.
Not pills.

Anal and I apologise for that but I have been very patient for a while.

Oxygen, yeast, cool fermentation.

Keys

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Do you find you calibrate very often if you ae checking prior to every test?

Now after having good pH testing and done lots of experiments and testing just about every stage of the process I've got it down now. I only do 2 tests for a brew now. I test the mash after its sat for 5 or more minutes, gentle stir and a small Vaurlofed amount. With the water profile I use it gets bang on PH 5.2 each time now. I'm stoked with that. I also test the filtered water on its own. Its 6.8 this weekend. It varies between 5.8 to 6.8. Evidently that variation doesn't make any difference to the mash ph.
I now use a water profile equivalent to 25% of the Burton on Trent profile and that's just for the mash water only. So end result for the entire wort will be something like 15% of the Burton on Trent profile. Why did I come to this profile? Toiling and brain straining to make a profile that has everything needed? :unsure: It seems to work perfect for the mash with the use of ~2% Acidulated Malt.
This is for Pale Ales so far but I will soon try it with lagers.

Added: I get good clarity and don't even use finings anymore. Just Whirfloc in the last 15min of the boil.

 

[mattjm]

Ok I finally have something I think is going to work:
Mash volume 17L add equally 1.7g of Calcium sulphate and calcium carbonate
Sparge 15L same again but 1.5g of each.
5kg pils malt and 150g 2% acid for a mash ph of 5.44.

 

[danestead]

You are going to need to add some acid (3% acidulated malt or thereabouts).

He can also use lactic acid. Thats what I use and is the same as using acidulated malt.

Personally though, if I didnt have an instrument to measure the PH with, I wouldnt bother dicking around with acids etc possibly making an incorrect assumption that you will need them.

 

[mattjm]

from spreadsheets i think what I came up with gets me in the ballpark.

 

[rude]

mmm I have been playing with R/O as well with no PH meter using Brun water calc

I have a meter coming hopefully a AD12 made in hungry thanks Danscraft trolled the internet though
& bought it through ServoVendi instead of Perth scientific

$154 through the perth mob same from the mob that make then ADWA in hungry 74 euro postage
e-mailed them & they wouldnt move on the postage option

ServoVendi $62 aus delivered havent got it yet going through spanish post fingers crossed

Last brew was a pale ale & used Brun pale ale profile got 137.7 ppm ca & my beers usually clear well
with time but with the extra ca bright within, well a lot quicker than usual , the photo is 2 weeks in keg no clearing agents except whirfloc at 10 mins then cubed



As Manticle quoted largers are better below 50ppm coming from Martin Brungaurd but triai
& error will prove this or you could take his word & also Black & Tan is switched on I'de like to
drink a few of his beers I recon

Do the google on R/O pils read up & good luck hope it turns out a ripper for you

 

[Black n Tan]

He can also use lactic acid. Thats what I use and is the same as using acidulated malt.

Personally though, if I didnt have an instrument to measure the PH with, I wouldnt bother dicking around with acids etc possibly making an incorrect assumption that you will need them.

Yep any acid is fine, liquid or acidulated malt. Using RO water the pH is likely to be a bit high (around pH5.6 according to Brun water), so I think he could safely add some acid even without a ph meter. Burn water or EZwater will help work out the additions and may be act on the conservative side and aim for mash ph of 5.3-5.4.