Pilsen Profile from RO

[mattjm]

Can someone check this for me please, Im starting from RO and assuming 0's (is there a better profile to use for RO?) and to reach pilsen or damn close I need for 30L: Calcium Sulphate 0.1g, Magnesium Sulphate 0.3g, Magnesium Chloride 0.5g, Calcium Carbonate 1g and Baking Soda 0.25g.

I understand these are minuscule quantities but I have a scale to measure them if Im going to get a good profile from it however Im open to other sugestions as Im really trying to get this one as perfect as possible.

 

[Black n Tan]

Don't get carried away trying to emulate a water profile exactly. I certainly wouldn't be adding carbonate or baking soda. If using RO water I would add 5g CaCl2 for a 23L batch and leave it there. it will provide a nice rounded malt profile typical of a czech pilsner. You will need to add some acid or acidulated malt if using pale malts to hit an optimal mash pH.

 

[danestead]

RO isn't all zeros, although it is close. The make up of your RO water is dependant upon the water out of your tap and the state of your RO filter.

To be honest, if I were to do Pilsen water, I'd use straight RO with no additions. The most I've ever used though is 75% RO mixed with 25% tap water as I want some minerals in there still like calcium. I'm not saying this is perfect, but it is what I've done.

 

[manticle]

I'd add enough cal chloride to hit 30- 40 ppm of calcium and leave it at that.
Ditto to b&t regarding the whole water profile approach. Pilsen water is good for pilsner because it's soft, not because it contains a poofteenth of carbonate.

Focus more closely on yeast health, cell numbers and fermentation profile.

 

[mattjm]

I'm fairly confident I have the other parts sorted so I'm concentrating on water profile, I'm attempting (from my other thread) a Stella clone as well as a Hahn super dry style clone. From my reading it seems getting calcium up to 50ppm for yeast health is actually a bit of a myth. For me I really just want two things: a base for ales and a base for lagers.

 

[Black n Tan]

The wort may provide sufficient calcium for yeast health, but is unlikely to provide enough for proper yeast flocculation. For these styles I would use CaSO4 more to help dry out the finish. So it is really up to you and want you want to achieve.

 

[manticle]

I'm fairly confident I have the other parts sorted so I'm concentrating on water profile, I'm attempting (from my other thread) a Stella clone as well as a Hahn super dry style clone. From my reading it seems getting calcium up to 50ppm for yeast health is actually a bit of a myth. For me I really just want two things: a base for ales and a base for lagers.

There is some evidence that lagers do not require 50 ppm minimum and that malt provides most/all the essentials but 40 ppm in the mash is still recommended as far as I understand. That's for lagers, ale still 50. Previously homebrew literature seemed to suggest calcium levels could be quite high (up to 250ppm) - you won't go wrong targetting 30 - 50 (total mash, not mash liquor).

 

[danestead]

The wort may provide sufficient calcium for yeast health, but is unlikely to provide enough for proper yeast flocculation. For these styles I would use CaSO4 more to help dry out the finish. So it is really up to you and want you want to achieve.

I have a Kölsch on tap which was fermented with the white labs Kölsch yeast. I used my tap water diluted with RO water and my estimated calcium is 6ppm. That yeast is reported as a medium flocculator yet is really really struggling to clear, even with a gelatine addition. Calcium may play a part.

 

[mattjm]

so just 5g of CaSo4 in 30L and have a play on different styles from there, tasting the RO water I think I will see a light and day difference just using that over my tap water.
Would love something definitive before I put this brew down as Im just guessing

 

[Black n Tan]

I have a Kölsch on tap which was fermented with the white labs Kölsch yeast. I used my tap water diluted with RO water and my estimated calcium is 6ppm. That yeast is reported as a medium flocculator yet is really really struggling to clear, even with a gelatine addition. Calcium may play a part.

Kolsch yeast is a bad flocculator: medium is generous IMO. I have been reading recently about the importance of calcium in flocculation and the evidence is clear that without calcium yeast will take longer to clear. One of the dry yeast manufacturers recommends 100ppm Ca to aid flocculation (can't remember which one). Recently my beers are taking longer to clear, mainly due to changing from a freezer to a fridge for fermentation (I just can't cold crash as low as I used to), so on my most recent lager I added 50ppm Ca in the mash (as normal) and an extra 50ppm just before cold crashing. Time will tell if I get a better result.

 

[Rocker1986]

I've done that whole water profile thing a number of times on my pilsners. I have a water still so I just distill water for them, and add those miniscule amounts back in. They've always turned out really well. No problems with yeast floccing out, although in saying that I did use isinglass in them for that. I did brew one with straight tap water as well, but it didn't turn out as nicely. That's just my personal experience though. It works for me, but YMMV.

 

[mattjm]

just measured the ph of my water coming out of the RO unit and Im getting 9.2 with a cheap ATC PH meter I got from HBS, tap water is 8.0. Meter is reading both consistenly the same. Shouldnt my RO be more like 7?

 

[manticle]

I doubt your ro water is really 9.2 unless you're somehow measuring the waste water.

My doubt would start at the measuring instrument.

 

[mattjm]

Im getting 8.0 every time I measure my tap water and im getting 2.4 for white vinegar, the ro waste is actually coming out at 8.4 and Im now seeing 8.9 for my ro water.

 

[manticle]

Either your filter or pH device is not working properly or you're not using them properly.

 

[Kodos]

There is some evidence that lagers do not require 50 ppm minimum and that malt provides most/all the essentials but 40 ppm in the mash is still recommended as far as I understand. That's for lagers, ale still 50. Previously homebrew literature seemed to suggest calcium levels could be quite high (up to 250ppm) - you won't go wrong targetting 30 - 50 (total mash, not mash liquor).

I'd be really interested to read some of this evidence, Manticle - can you point me to any of it?

It's not just homebrew texts: Peter Waldred from Uni of Ballarat talks about the need for calcium, and Fix and Bamforth explain it helps alpha amylase and yeast (but they don't give an amount).

I'd be genuinely interested to read newer sources on the subject.

 

[manticle]

I'm familiar with many sources for the calcium requirement (and none of the new info negates that necessarily - just that the need for additions is overstated and lager requirements are much more minimal).

I'm not at a point where I can say it is definitive as my understanding previously was also from authors such as fix, bamforth, lewis, de clerck, etc but some of the referenced info from martin brungard suggests the requirement for additional calcium may be overstated, especially in regards to lagers.

At no point am I (nor do I believe is he) suggesting calcium does not play a major role in enzyme activity, yeast function and flocculation, pH adjustment, etc.

 

[mattjm]

I dont really see how I could be misusing either, the filter is water in water out and a waste water line and the meter is placed in the water up to the line and gives a reading, am i missing something?

 

[Goose]

I dont really see how I could be misusing either, the filter is water in water out and a waste water line and the meter is placed in the water up to the line and gives a reaing, am i missing something?

calibration ?

 

[manticle]

RO water will be between pH 5 & 7 so something definitely is missing.

 

[mattjm]

2.4 is spot on with vinegar though isnt it? can it be that it is struggling to get a read on the water because it is actually to pure, I read somewhere this can be the case with cheaper meters and ro. Pretty frustrated right now and really wanted to get the mash ph right.

 

[danestead]

I dont really see how I could be misusing either, the filter is water in water out and a waste water line and the meter is placed in the water up to the line and gives a reaing, am i missing something?

What model PH meter do you have and do you calibrate it prior to each day of use? What is the accuracy of your meter (not resolution)?

I know that deionised or distilled water is hard to get an accurate PH from as there arent enough minerals in it which results in pretty much 0 buffering capacity hence easily influenced by other sources. Maybe your RO water is very low in minerals also and causeing the same sort of issues in getting a reading.

Edit: Also, where did you get your RO filter and what brand is it? Do you have a TDS meter to check that the RO filter is actually reducing the mineral content of your water?

Edit 2: How old is the probe in your PH meter? Have you tried testing the PH calibration solution to see how close it is measuring it?

 

[mattjm]

Thats the only conclusion I can come to, I need some distilled water to calibrate with the buffering solution as Im now not confident to assume my ro water cuts it. It doesn't have a brand name on the package (which may be a big part of the problem) just says PHtester.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/100-brand-new-digital-ph-meter-tester-0-14/162111412.html
accuracy and resolution both .1.

 

[danestead]

Just measured my Perth water with my Hanna 98128. 0.05 accuracy but not calibrated today. Last calibrated last brew 2 weeks ago.

Tap 6.23
RO 7.10
RO waste 6.9 but kept going up slowly over many minutes. Not sure why.

 

[danestead]

Thats the only conclusion I can come to, I need some distilled water to calibrate with the buffering solution as Im now not confident to assume my ro water cuts it. It doesn't have a brand name on the package (which may be a big part of the problem) just says PHtester.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/100-brand-new-digital-ph-meter-tester-0-14/162111412.html
accuracy and resolution both .1.

Hmm $12. Im afraid to say that you arent going to get much more than a stab in the dark with a meter that cheap.

 

[mattjm]

unfortunately it was the only option they had at TWOC when I was there and it cost $30 so looks like money down the drain.
Bit unsure now where to go with all this I still want to brew tomorrow so Im thinking maybe just add 5g of Calcium sulphate to 30 l of the RO brew a simple pilsner without worrying about mash PH and see where I end up.
So my plight for super accuracy seems to have ended up at RO system $460, stir plate $80, beaker $60, scales to measure water additions $120, ph meter $30 = back to what I was doing before and chuck in a pinch of salt lol

 

[danestead]

unfortunately it was the only option they had at TWOC when I was there and it cost $30 so looks like money down the drain.
Bit unsure now where to go with all this I still want to brew tomorrow so Im thinking maybe just add 5g of Calcium sulphate to 30 l of the RO brew a simple pilsner without worrying about mash PH and see where I end up.
So my plight for super accuracy seems to have ended up at RO system $460, stir plate $80, beaker $60, scales to measure water additions $120, ph meter $30 = back to what I was doing before and chuck in a pinch of salt lol

Most people brew all grain without measuring the PH so dont stress too much. You will get beer and probably good beer at that.

It is interesting you paid $120 for the scales as I bought some 200g jewellery scale off ebay for about $7 plus some calibration weights and believe it or not, they are accurate to 0.01 of a gram. Unfortunately it sounds like you should have spent your money on the PH meter and saved on the scales. Ah well, we all live and learn!

 

[mattjm]

Yeah im sure I could have saved a heap on the scales and ro unit buying online but best I could manage on a friday in perth.

 

[Black n Tan]

You are going to need to add some acid (3% acidulated malt or thereabouts).

 

[Mr B]

Pffff i'm sure the money you are saving on buying beer far outweighs the equipment cost