PID Recommendations?

[_Mick_]

Anyone got some good PID and temp probe recommendations? I want to put one with my hlt so I'm not having to constantly check the temp while its heating. No need for ramp/soak function as I don't have a HERMS but it may be an option for the future. (pending approval from the minister for war and finance)

 

[sponge]

SYL-2352P
Definitely get one with ramp/soak, even if you're not going to use it at this stage. Then grab the PT100 to suit (with deluxe cable, IMO).

Easy to use, program and set-and-forget.

 

[Crusty]

SYL-2352P
Definitely get one with ramp/soak, even if you're not going to use it at this stage. Then grab the PT100 to suit (with deluxe cable, IMO).

Easy to use, program and set-and-forget.

Sound advice right there.
Also look at a heat sink & a SSR, 25A minimum but I'd go 40A.

 

[Adam Howard]

Just get the non ramp/soak 2352 model. It's $30 cheaper and you really don't need that function at all for an HLT. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3 Add in an RTD sensor and 25A SSR and you'll be sweet. Find yourself a decent sized box that'll fit a second PID and fork out for the ramp/soak model is you update to HERMS later on.

 

[sponge]

For the sake of $30 (if you're already spending money at auberins), I'd be getting the ramp/soak.

If HERMS/RIMS is even remotely in the foreseeable future - as it sounds like it is - you'll be kicking yourself for not having it from the start.

Small outlay for now and saves on re-ordering later on.

Just my 2 bob.

 

[seamad]

Postage adds a bit to orders from auber, so if you think you are going to get a ramp soak later it's worthwhile thinking about getting it now, you can even tell the wife you're saving money...
Also agree that the detachable cables are the go, although I've re-soldered most of mine due to rough handling.

 

[Adam Howard]

The only reason I'm advocating the non ramp/soak for the HLT is because unless he's going to use his HLT as the heat exchange down the track there's no need for a ramp/soak PID. He'll need two PID's with one non ramp/soak if he's going to go HERMS with a separate heat exhange in the future.

I'm pretty much doing the exact same order very soon. One 2352 for the HLT and one 2352P for the heat exchange element.

 

[sponge]

That's a fair point A29.

I was more thinking if you're getting a PID, get a ramp/soak if you're thinking about HERMS/RIMS at some stage. It's easy enough grabbing an STC1000 for ~$20 for the HLT in the future, but a lot more money spent getting another order from Auber.

 

[Camo6]

Buy both now and combine postage. Otherwise grab a sestos off ebay and avoid the high US dollar and delivery costs.

 

[Yob]

I'm going (eventually) to be ramp/soak on the hex but I reckon I'll stick with the stc and brown pump for the hlt, handles the job plenty easy (70lt)

Sure, ain't as bling.. But neither is the rest of my rig

 

[Adr_0]

If you decide not to get a ramp/soak PID controller, you could always use a manual output in lieu of the ramp. Potentially troublesome if you have a lot of lag between temp measurement and the heat source (eg big volume HERMS or very convoluted RIMS) but you should be fine. Using manual output to stimulate soak will be less effective but does anyone actually use soak anyway?

 

[Camo6]

If you decide not to get a ramp/soak PID controller, you could always use a manual output in lieu of the ramp. Potentially troublesome if you have a lot of lag between temp measurement and the heat source (eg big volume HERMS or very convoluted RIMS) but you should be fine. Using manual output to stimulate soak will be less effective but does anyone actually use soak anyway?

Can you clarify this Adro? My system uses soak for rest periods on my herms. Ramp to setpoint, soak for desired time. Not needed on my HLT, set to 78*c, all done.

Are you suggesting to use a standard PID on manual ouput mode to reach setpoint? Why not just change the setpoint?

Or are you suggesting to use the PID on manual output to hold the element at a certain percentage of power to simulate a rest period? For an extra $30 give me automated step programming anyday.

And the last time I used manual output on a stimulated soak the wife complained I'd used all the hot water...


Not being smart, just was unsure of your posts meaning. :beer:

 

[fraser_john]

Can you clarify this Adro? My system uses soak for rest periods on my herms. Ramp to setpoint, soak for desired time. Not needed on my HLT, set to 78*c, all done.

Are you suggesting to use a standard PID on manual ouput mode to reach setpoint? Why not just change the setpoint?

Or are you suggesting to use the PID on manual output to hold the element at a certain percentage of power to simulate a rest period? For an extra $30 give me automated step programming anyday.

And the last time I used manual output on a stimulated soak the wife complained I'd used all the hot water...


Not being smart, just was unsure of your posts meaning. :beer:

Similar/same here, basic PID for HLT, set at sparge temp and never touch again. Ramp/Soak PID for controlling the HEX element based on outlet temp.

 

[gava]

Recently gone through a build with PID selection etc.

HLT + HERMS Coil.
What PID did I use?
RAMP+SOAK

Was it worth it?
No - I'm yet to use RAMP/SOAK module on my system, The only time I think I'll ever use it would be for a mash out.
I could see the advantages for step mashing but I dont play with that at the moment.

I have an electric brewery style control panel with alarms, I just set my alarm 1 to go off when its 2c to my set point for strike water.
Then when mashing I set the timer to alarm - once alarm goes off I manually set my PID to my mash out temp (2 second job)
I've gone back to a more manual brewing system from a brewtroller setup. I find the manual touch more fun.
If you want a fully automatic system, save your money and just buy your favourite beer or get someone to brew it for you.

What I've learnt
Buy popular modules and don't buy cheap eBay shitty PIDS. Auber/sestos are the most popular going around and alot of people use them so you'll get support on nearly all beer forums.

If you have a HERMS coil within your HLT when training your PID get your water close to your set point i.e. most mashing is around 65 so get it up to about 55-60c and then enable the AUTO TUNE. If you do not do this you can find your PID over/under shooting alot since it has learnt from your lower temp. Also do not have your HERMS coil running with liquid while you tune, I tried this and the PID got very confused, But when your in your brew it'll handle this fine.

I spent a day tweaking and playing with my system the other week to find suitable P I D levels cycle times etc once you find them. Write them down.
It's all down to pot thickness/ probe placement and believe it or not but I found mine worked better with the LID off, if I had it on the HLT couldn't cool down quick enough to allow the PID to tune correctly. Since the POT heats up quickly but cools down slower the damp setting can tune incorrectly. IM no way a PID expert this is what I learnt from my day of research..

I also noticed my MLT lagged behind my HLT temp, I had to keep my HLT at 1.2c->1.4c higher than my HLT desired temp.

So a little off topic from PID selection but thought I'd give you my recent PID findings.

EDIT: I've configured my panel for future expansion of a 4th vessel for a dedicated HERMS. WHY? I find a smaller dedicated pot has a far superior heat/cool.

Cheers n Beers

 

[TheWiggman]

Poor _Mick_, so much info with pretty much everyone conflicting!

I'm not sure everyone understands what ramp/soak means but Adr_0's on the money as confusing as his comment may seem (and he is 100% correct*). I think some people are getting ramp/soak mixed up with PID. A correctly set PID will negate the need for the 'ramp' function at the sacrifice of a little bit of time to reach target temp. Soak would be handy for more automated step mashing, but this is up to OP. Like gava said, not necessary and not everyone uses it.
I have a very simple (albeit expensive) PID with zero alterable settings and it achieves excellent stability once target is hit. I have a HERMS and do ~20l batches. I have no reason to upgrade unless I could polish the new controller.

If you're mounting your SSR on a heatsink then either SSR will do. Otherwise, go the 40A as they run cooler.

Definately buy a PID that other people use as they will be able to attest to their performance and provide support. That said, I've used the cheapo ones on mates' systems and they perform fine. How long they will last though is unknown.

Righto, back to staring at _Mick_'s avatar.

Edit: *I think he may have meant ramp when he said soak?

 

[Camo6]

What's not to understand? Correct me if I'm wrong but ramp is an increase in temperature to reach a setpoint and soak or dwell is maintaining a temperature for a preset period of time.
My HLT only requires a standard PID function: ramp to setpoint until told otherwise.
My HERMS uses the ramp/soak ability to maintain mash temps and does it far more successfully than my old controller- a camping mat.

I disagree about over complicating things with automated programming. I enjoyed the extra complexity it added to the build and on brewday its a Godsend. Being able to do a multiple rest mash while mowing the lawns is worth it to me. People with Braumeisters never complain about not pressing enough buttons.

Sorry if we're veering away from your question Mick but I do love these process discussions.

 

[TheWiggman]

Ramp/soak are actual functions in some controller units. These aren't needed for a HERMS system to reach or maintain a set temp.

PID = proportional, integral, derivitive, which are factors put in the Laplace transform of the transfer function blah blah >>> all PID means for our intent and purpose is that there are 'smarts' in the controller which incorporate a feedback loop to acheive a set value. i.e you want 62°C at a certain point, then the controller with achieve 62°C at that point and maintain it (regardless of where the system is being heated or cooled).

Ramp (as a function) maintains or limits the rate of change of a value. You can adjust the ramp so you can limit the rate of heating to 0.5°C/min. Alternatively, you can set it to 1.5°C/min when your system can only do 1°C/min, in which case it will be like switching it into manual. In the absence of ramp the controller will simply heat using PID.

Soak (as a function) maintains a set value (utilising PID control) for a given amount of time before moving to another value. This is handy for step mashing in the home brew scene, where you could have a soak at 65, 72 then 78 for example.

In my brewery I turn my PID to 58°C for mash-in. The PID unit will keep the element going until it hits about 51°C, then start cycling the HERMS element off. This slows down the heating considerably as it learns from the feedback loop, and can take about 4 mins to get from 57-58°C. However, by doing this it avoids overshoot and will sit on 58°C for hours on end, which is the whole point of PID.

In reality, I walk away, and come back an hour later and the MT is at 58°C. I change each step manually and have a timer on my phone for the steps, so I don't have a need for extra stuff. To each their own though.

 

[gava]

I believe ramp is a setpoint over time. i.e. 65 to 75 over 25minutes.. then you can soak for 10minutes etc..
RAMP isn't just going from temp A to temp B as quick as it can.

example. (making temps up not sure about step mash temps)
Starting temp of 45c
RAMP to 55c over 20minutes
SOAK at 55c for 15minutes
RAMP to 60c over 25 minutes
SOAK at 60c for 15minutes
RAMP to 66c over 15minutes
SOAK at 66c for 10minutes

that's my understanding, If incorrect please correct me, but this is was I've experienced with my PID,
And back to OP - I don't believe a RAMP/SOAK PID is required unless you're planning fancy MASH profiles and can't be assed manually assigning.

cheers

 

[TheWiggman]

I should add I think it's on-topic. If you're deciding on spending an extra $30 or $60 on controllers it's good to know what you're paying for. It's also good to clarify what all these fancy terms mean. Gets a bit confusing when people say "I've got an STC PID controller" which is plain wrong. If I thought an STC was a PID then I'd wonder why the hell everyone was forking out $100 for something that does the same thing.

 

[Camo6]

I believe ramp is a setpoint over time. i.e. 65 to 75 over 25minutes.. then you can soak for 10minutes etc..
RAMP isn't just going from temp A to temp B as quick as it can.

example. (making temps up not sure about step mash temps)
Starting temp of 45c
RAMP to 55c over 20minutes
SOAK at 55c for 15minutes
RAMP to 60c over 25 minutes
SOAK at 60c for 15minutes
RAMP to 66c over 15minutes
SOAK at 66c for 10minutes

that's my understanding, If incorrect please correct me, but this is was I've experienced with my PID,
And back to OP - I don't believe a RAMP/SOAK PID is required unless you're planning fancy MASH profiles and can't be assed manually assigning.

cheers

That's my understanding of it too Gava. Been a while since I programmed my 2352p but from memory you can ramp at maximum rate instead of over time by changing T values but I had enough fun just entering my standard mash schedules which I copied from this forum.

Agree that for a HLT a PID or even an STC is all that's needed.