Pid Newbie Stuff

[bignath]

Looks good.
the earth will be common to both the circuits. But less joins is better.
Also it would be a good idea to have someone check it with an insulation resistance tester.

G'day booargy,

are you implying i need to run an earth from the second circuit, to the same earth point as the first circuit?

If so, what would be the best way to do this.... Run a third earth line out of the earth's shared terminal block in the second circuit to the earth point that i use for the SSR and heatsink thing?

cheers for your help too!

 

[booargy]

If it is screwed/bolted to the table that should be enough.

 

[bignath]

If it is screwed/bolted to the table that should be enough.

Cool, how's this look now.....added an earth joining both circuits to the chassis of the enclosure with the SSR/Heatsink.



EDIT: moved the "E" so it made sense near the earth wire off of SSR.

 

[QldKev]

No need to join the 2 circuits. Just ensure the join in the earth lead is 100% perfect. Also where it bolts to the box ensure a good clean join to the metal, ensure there is no paint/plastic enclosure coating in the way stopping the earth contact area. It would not hurt to earth both feed circuits to the enclosure at separate points. If the enclosure is bolted to the metal stand then that should provide an earth circuit for the entire rig.

edit: Doh!, didn't move the E in the pic


QldKev

 

[QldKev]

I should add in the diagram I moved the Earth on the SSR back to the bottom as I think that's a better place to pick up the Earth from. Have a close look at the SSR I linked to earlier, between the 240VAC terminals there is a bolt hole, pick the Earth up from there.

 

[bignath]

View attachment 58827


No need to join the 2 circuits. Just ensure the join in the earth lead is 100% perfect. Also where it bolts to the box ensure a good clean join to the metal, ensure there is no paint/plastic enclosure coating in the way stopping the earth contact area. It would not hurt to earth both feed circuits to the enclosure at separate points. If the enclosure is bolted to the metal stand then that should provide an earth circuit for the entire rig.

edit: Doh!, didn't move the E in the pic


QldKev

OK, so how's this look mate?

Have separated the circuits, but still earthed them both to the chassis of the enclosure. Also tidied up the diagram a bit...

 

[bignath]

I should add in the diagram I moved the Earth on the SSR back to the bottom as I think that's a better place to pick up the Earth from. Have a close look at the SSR I linked to earlier, between the 240VAC terminals there is a bolt hole, pick the Earth up from there.

gotcha, that makes sense.

That was always where i was gonna take the earth from, just struggled to make it look neat on the diagram..

I'll be back in a sec with a (hopefully) final diagram..

 

[bignath]

RIGHTO, i think i've got it....

i got rid of the terminal blocks in the diagram to help make it neater. the two separate circuits are separated, but each are earthed to the chassis.

I will still probably use the terminal blocks, just got rid of them off the diagram...

comments??



Is this all electrically sound?

and as mentioned before, the plan is to use a metal enclosure and mount it to a metal arm/bracket snenario onto my stainless steel brew table.

 

[spog]

OK, i'm getting ready to order my parts i need for this PID control box build.

Here are the things i want to be able to do...

PID to run and control a 2000-2400W element in the mash. This element will be plumbed in similar to QldKev's u-bend type element.

I want two independant mains feeds going into the box, one to control the pid side of things, and one that basically just goes in and then out again with a switch on it that i can run a second element that will NOT be controlled by the PID.
Also on this second mains power input, i would like to be able to run my little brown pump.

I would like switches for all three items; Mash element, Pump, and second element used for the boil.
I would like these switches to illuminate when on too.

Here is a diagram i've drawn up in paint, based on my earlier diagram, but also adding in the SSR earth, second 240V circuit, and switches.

I am not sure if what i've done is possible. I think it is, but not 100% sure yet.

I think it's advisable to earth the SSR yes?
What about switching the 240V before the element? Is that safe to do?
How about using the terminal blocks to split the 240v to the second/third 240v output sockets? Same blocks we use when we all wire up our stc's....is that safe to do?

Can someone take a look and offer feedback?

Cheers,

Nath

View attachment 58817

Big Nath,your proposed set up sounds just like mine.2 elements,1 on a sepererate circuit/switch,then the other hooked up/run through the pid.
i also have 2x 12v switchs,one that isolates the 12v power from the pid to the ssr (so the pid will display temps but not fire the ssr) the other 12v switch is for a future brown pump.
all of the switches are illuminated but different colours so i will know which is which.(i dont want labels by the switches and dont have room on the control box to fit them)
i have the 240v switches on the left hand side,the pid in the middle and the 12v swithes on the right hand side.
the 240v and 12v switches are different looking so you cant confuse them and as above the different colours tell me which is which.
i will get my lad to post pics (buggered if i can) tomorrow evening of the control box,please dont ask for a wiring diagram because when it comes to electrics and computers i am bloody useless.
hope this helps...cheers....spog.

oh my control box is made of wood so all the earthing will be through the inlet earthed cables

 

[bignath]

Big Nath,your proposed set up sounds just like mine.2 elements,1 on a sepererate circuit/switch,then the other hooked up/run through the pid.
i also have 2x 12v switchs,one that isolates the 12v power from the pid to the ssr (so the pid will display temps but not fire the ssr) the other 12v switch is for a future brown pump.
all of the switches are illuminated but different colours so i will know which is which.(i dont want labels by the switches and dont have room on the control box to fit them)
i have the 240v switches on the left hand side,the pid in the middle and the 12v swithes on the right hand side.
the 240v and 12v switches are different looking so you cant confuse them and as above the different colours tell me which is which.
i will get my lad to post pics (buggered if i can) tomorrow evening of the control box,please dont ask for a wiring diagram because when it comes to electrics and computers i am bloody useless.
hope this helps...cheers....spog.

oh my control box is made of wood so all the earthing will be through the inlet earthed cables

Sweet, cheers spog...look forward to seeing the pics!

Assuming my diagram is electrically safe and will do the job, now it looks like i need to start thinking about laying it all out, and hunting down an enclosure and the parts...the fun begins!

 

[spog]

Big Nath heres the pics of the control box,coming in multiple posts
box rear. lhs inlet for 12v power from an old phone charger with a suitable socket.
then the hookup for the temp probe rtd pt 100.i used a 4 pin microphone male chassis mount (jaycar pp-2010) with a microphone line female 4 pin plug (jaycar ps-2012).
4 pin plugs used because no 3 pin plugs were in store,i just left the 4th pin vacant.
below that is 2 rca chassis mount sockets. (jaycar ps-0256 black, ps-0257 red) i got 2 of each,the other 2 will be hooked up to the future brown pump.
the leads are left over rca leads from an old vcr.
also used was an rca mounting kit (jaycar hp-1180) for use in a metal panel.
next 2x mains socket panel plugs. (jaycar ps-4094).
then the power in cord salvaged from an old clothes dryer.this powers the element that is controlled by the pid.
the blue lead beneath powers the seperate element used for bringing the water upto strike temp and then the boil.

 

[spog]

View attachment 58861Big Nath heres the pics of the control box,coming in multiple posts
box rear. lhs inlet for 12v power from an old phone charger with a suitable socket.
then the hookup for the temp probe rtd pt 100.i used a 4 pin microphone male chassis mount (jaycar pp-2010) with a microphone line female 4 pin plug (jaycar ps-2012).
4 pin plugs used because no 3 pin plugs were in store,i just left the 4th pin vacant.
below that is 2 rca chassis mount sockets. (jaycar ps-0256 black, ps-0257 red) i got 2 of each,the other 2 will be hooked up to the future brown pump.
the leads are left over rca leads from an old vcr.
also used was an rca mounting kit (jaycar hp-1180) for use in a metal panel.
next 2x mains socket panel plugs. (jaycar ps-4094).
then the power in cord salvaged from an old clothes dryer.this powers the element that is controlled by the pid.
the blue lead beneath powers the seperate element used for bringing the water upto strike temp and then the boil.

the front panel is, lhs the switch that powers the seperate element,powered by the blue lead.(jaycar spst 240v 15a sk-0976 blue)
the 2nd switch powers the 2nd element that is controlled by the pid/ssr. (jaycar spst 240v 15amp sk-0979 green).
next the pid, a 1/32 din pid off ebay,the seller was globalbuyerstore in hong kong,cant remember the $.

 

[spog]

the front panel is, lhs the switch that powers the seperate element,powered by the blue lead.(jaycar spst 240v 15a sk-0976 blue)
the 2nd switch powers the 2nd element that is controlled by the pid/ssr. (jaycar spst 240v 15amp sk-0979 green).
next the pid, a 1/32 din pid off ebay,the seller was globalbuyerstore in hong kong,cant remember the $.

next the fuse holder, i stuffed up here,this is a 240v fuse the plan was to use a 12v job to protect the pid/ssr.will fix that.
then the 12v switch that isolates the pid from the ssr so temps can be monitored during /after the boil for pitching temp,
(jaycar spst rocker actuator 12v 30a sl-0955 red).
and finally the last switch which is for the brown pump,same as above but amber in colour.got this from an auto shop.
all the switches are diff colours so i know what does what and i didnt want labels on the control panel.
you can see the 70mm comp fan underneath cooling the ssr,put the heatsink in the cupboard,cant use it in a wooden box.
the ssr is mounted directly above the fan (vent holes yet to be drilled).
oh the 12v fan is wired so as soon as the 12v adapter is turned on the fan comes on so the ssr cant get hot

 

[spog]

next the fuse holder, i stuffed up here,this is a 240v fuse the plan was to use a 12v job to protect the pid/ssr.will fix that.
then the 12v switch that isolates the pid from the ssr so temps can be monitored during /after the boil for pitching temp,
(jaycar spst rocker actuator 12v 30a sl-0955 red).
and finally the last switch which is for the brown pump,same as above but amber in colour.got this from an auto shop.
all the switches are diff colours so i know what does what and i didnt want labels on the control panel.
you can see the 70mm comp fan underneath cooling the ssr,put the heatsink in the cupboard,cant use it in a wooden box.
the ssr is mounted directly above the fan (vent holes yet to be drilled).
oh the 12v fan is wired so as soon as the 12v adapter is turned on the fan comes on so the ssr cant get hot

the box measures 270mm w 100mm h 200mm deep. the fascia panels are ally,cut to the same size as the box face and held in plce with 20x12mm brass tiling angles,the kind at the edge of your tiled floors.
the box is made of western red cedar.

 

[spog]

side view showing angle of box on mounting post so the face of the box can be easily seen as opposed to having it mounted parallel with the brew bench
power point under the bench lip to protect it from water etc,with the 12v adaptor plugged in

 

[spog]

mounting plate for ssr over fan.

 

[spog]

mounting bolts ssr over fan

 

[bignath]

Cheers spog, appreciate it mate.

i'll pm you just in case you don't check back in here for a little while.... would you mind measuring the dimensions of one of those relays?

Here's the progress i've made over the last 24hours. I spent last night in hospital with our daughter (type 1 diabetic) so i had a lot of quiet time on my hands to work on this stuff...
Today i bought the lockable IP66 rated enclosure, 5 x 240v illuminated switches (3 green, 2 red). Was gonna go 3 red and 2 green but they only had 2 red's left. No dramas, red is for the "master switch/emergency stop", and green ones will indicate what element or pump is on. Cool.
I've also bought 2 IEC panel mount male sockets, and have the 3 female 240v panel mains sockets on order.
I have come up with a basic "layout" for my control panel. the idea is to get a sticker made up (ezbrew) that will fill in the gap where i COULD mount a second PID if i ever upgrade this box to use on my 3v rig. Planning ahead and all that shit..Remove "sticker" and i have space for another PID.

I have added in blue lines, the basic power flow for each circuit. Any sparkies out there, no i don't intend to use blue wires for everything....it's just to show (and for me to get this all in my head) how everything is gonna map itself out.

Here's the schematic i'm gonna work from:

Have added in a master/emergency stop for the first circuit - the one that controls PID/SSR.



Here's the basic layout:



Here's the box i bought this morning. Fuckin' hell these things aren't cheap are they? Or maybe i just got reamed, but oh well, for all intents and purposes it's gonna be perfect:




Questions re heatsinks...

I obviously want to use the removable panel to mount the ssr and heatsink arrangement in. Would this panel need to be at the top of the enclosure or would it be ok at the bottom of the enclosure - the door comes off and can be mounted either side, so i can flip the box upside down and have it open the same way.
My brain tells me heat will dissipate better if the sinks are at the top as it can rise away from the enclosure, or doesn't it really matter?
If im planning to make this box expandable for a dual pid setup down the track, can you mount two ssr's to the same heatsink? Im assuming i'll just need to get a bigger heatsink for that job, but is it safe to do this? Is it safe to buy a big heatsink assuming i'll attach two ssr's if i only use for the immediate future?

Do i need to, or SHOULD it add a master switch for the second circuit too? I have bought the switch in case i should do this, and can mount it all ready to go so if i add a second PID, the job's already done...thoughts?

cheers for all your ongoing help guys, and as always, if i'm doing something dumb with all this....please let me know.
Don't wanna be going through all this shit later if i get something wrong.

Also, when this build is complete, i'm going to do a master thread documenting the whole build, with references back to the two threads i've currently got going. It may be beneficial to someone thinking about going through this journey to have all the info in one thread, AS WELL as both individual threads.

Cheers,

Nath

 

[MaltyHops]

i'll pm you just in case you don't check back in here for a little while.... would you mind measuring the dimensions of one of those relays?

The ebay SSR items often have dimensions listed and some that don't
look identical to the Auber 25A SSR which does list the dims.

Here's the box i bought this morning. Fuckin' hell these things aren't cheap are they? Or maybe i just got reamed, but oh well, for all intents and purposes it's gonna be perfect:

They're not cheap ... unless you have some sparky mates who can
help buy.

I obviously want to use the removable panel to mount the ssr and heatsink arrangement in.

Why? Mounting the SSR to the lid (assuming this is what you mean)
would just take up real estate on the front panel. Mounting the SSR
within the box would mean the higher power wires can be secured
down more than if it has to connect to something on the lid.

Might be worth looking for something to use like a main plate that
could be secured to the back of the box that you mount items to
and secure cables - this way you can make changes to the layout
without hacking up the box too much - kind of like a removable
"motherboard". You could use DIN rails but these aren't cheap.

TIP: use word or drawing apps to mock up layouts, look at different
designs carefully before comitting. Don't rely on being able to put
things really close together.

If im planning to make this box expandable for a dual pid setup down the track, can you mount two ssr's to the same heatsink? Im assuming i'll just need to get a bigger heatsink for that job, but is it safe to do this? Is it safe to buy a big heatsink assuming i'll attach two ssr's if i only use for the immediate future?

You could get and put two SSRs in now even if you only use one for
now - an extra SSR is not that expensive - this will make it easier to
make sure you can fit two circuits in the box. Plus you will have a spare
SSR you can change to if one carks it.

 

[bignath]

Why? Mounting the SSR to the lid (assuming this is what you mean)
would just take up real estate on the front panel. Mounting the SSR
within the box would mean the higher power wires can be secured
down more than if it has to connect to something on the lid.

Cheers MH, i probably wasn't clear. The enclosure has a removable top panel (shown in picture) that i was gonna use for the ssr/heatsink. Not in the door (front panel).
If i stand the whole enclosure up on it's bottom, with the door able to open out toward me, the removable panel would be in the top panel of the enclosure.
The enclosure measures 300 x 250x 155 (mm's)

Might be worth looking for something to use like a main plate that
could be secured to the back of the box that you mount items to
and secure cables - this way you can make changes to the layout
without hacking up the box too much - kind of like a removable
"motherboard". You could use DIN rails but these aren't cheap.

Yep the enclosure i have has a removable steel board that i could tie down the cables to nice and neat, and then this screws into the back of the box.

You could get and put two SSRs in now even if you only use one for
now - an extra SSR is not that expensive - this will make it easier to
make sure you can fit two circuits in the box. Plus you will have a spare
SSR you can change to if one carks it.

Awesome, might go and get two ssr's and kit it all out ready for future expansion.

thanks for all your help.

what do you think about putting a master switch on the second circuit?

cheers,

Nath