Pbw Replacement For Stainless Cleaning

[Galamus]

I find that one of my most expensive outlays now that I have jumped on bulk buys and started growing hops is PBW cleaner. Starsan seems to last forever but i go through a fair amount of PBW and at ~$25 a kg its expensive.

I work in a laboratory so I have access to pretty much any chemical I want, I'm curious as to what people who dont use PBW use as a CIP cleaner.. I am thinking of using a caustic clean (5-15%) followed by an acid rinse(phosphoric or nitric) either occasionally or each time to remove calcium stone. I have found some interesting links -which I have listed below- though it appears caustic cleaning is uncommon in the homebrewing world.

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...4/millspaw.html
http://www.ssina.com/download_a_file/cleaning.pdf

I would be interested in hearing about any ones experience with different cleaning methods.

Also I will obviously be cleaning at room temp (as hot caustic and stainless is not ideal) and I was thinking 20/30 min soaking in a caustic solution.

Cheers Guys

 

[MHB]

Hot Caustic (NaOH) at 1-2% really is the industry standard brewhouse cleaner.

I dont know where you get the idea that it isnt good, its very effective, mind you it will dissolve people to. Use with great care!

MHB

 

[Galamus]

Thanks MHB I'm used to 50% caustic solutions and at that strength you are not meant to increase the temp above 80 or you risk eating your tank (304SS).

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=34

What temperature would you suggest to clean at?

*Edit for accuracy and link

 

[MHB]

1-2% caustic at or near boiling, that's a lot different to 50%
Usually if you don't have a separate CIP system, enough water and caustic to make a pumped circuit is brought to a boil in the kettle, this is then pumped into the mash tun via a spray ball or similar, returning to the kettle by way of the normal tun to kettle path. Recirculate for 15-30 minutes, then move the spray ball over to the kettle.
You need a decent pump and a spray system that gets all the surfaces wet, be careful to test your system with water before you add caustic, even a fine mist of boiling caustic can be very dangerous.
Personally I use hot caustic and a long handled dunny brush (no - the other one, not the one that lives in the loo)
MHB

 

[brettprevans]

At the risk of killing kittens, why not start a bulk buy on pbw? Last bb I got into for pbw i picked up like 5kg for $20 or less (from memory). Much cheaper and less dangerous. But if u want an alternative all I've heard about is standard brewery caustic as being the alternative.

 

[Galamus]

Thanks again MHB I'll give it a try, not quite sure how to recirc back into the kettle without spraying caustic everywhere with a sprayball, but I'm sure I will sort something out, maybe a 180 ball rather than a 360. Do you ever use a nitric wash to regenerate the passivation layer on the stainless?

Citymorgue, thats not a bad idea at all, I would have no idea where to start (ie. who to bulk buy from) but I'm sure people would be interested..

 

[Batz]

Recipe to make your own PBW on this forum

http://www.tucsonbrewclub.com/index.php?op...d=2&id=1139

Batz

 

[razz]

You can make your PBW go a bit further Galamus. I have no probs with using it at half strength, it still works okay. Not sure about CIP as I don't do it.

 

[Batz]

I just received a reply to my email to a chemical supplier in Gympie.



sodium percarbonate@ $3.30per kg
sodium metasilicate @ $2.50per Kg

So you could make your own PBW for under $3.00 a kilo. Now that's a saving of around $21.50 per kilo, I'm looking into this further

Batz

 

[MarkBastard]

Batz do you reckon the recipe below is the right one?

PBW should contain up to:
40% sodium percarbonate
30% sodium metasilicate
8& chelate
6% sequestrant
with the leftovers (+/- 16%) made up of sodium carbonate.

If so does your chemical supplier stock chelate and sequenstrant? Also I guess getting bicarb through them would be a good idea too?

 

[Batz]

Batz do you reckon the recipe below is the right one?



If so does your chemical supplier stock chelate and sequenstrant? Also I guess getting bicarb through them would be a good idea too?

Don't know about chelate or sequenstrant, bicarb is cheap as in the swimming pool section of Bunnies etc.

A sequestrant is a food additive whose role is to improve the quality and stability of the food products. Sequestrants form chelate complexes with polyvalent metal ions, especially copper, iron and nickel, which serve as catalysts in the oxidation of the fats in the food. Sequestrants are a kind of preservative.

The name comes from Latin and means "to withdraw from use"[citation needed].

Common sequestrants are:

Calcium disodium ethylene diamine tetra-acetate (E385)
Glucono delta-lactone (E575)
Sodium gluconate (E576)
Potassium gluconate (E577)
Sodium tripolyphosphate
Sodium hexametaphosphate (E452i)

Sodium and calcium salts of EDTA are also commonly used in many foods and beverages.

Batz

 

[randyrob]

Hey Guys,

The Westcoast Brewers recently did a chemicals with the intent of making something simular to PBW. In the past we have done just straight Sodium Percarbonate Bulk Buys.

WCB Wash

60% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Metasilicate
10% Disodium Phosphate


here was our Pricing (including GST)

Percarbonate $2.50 per KG
Metasilicate $3.50 per KG
Disodium Phos (Dihydrate) $7.50 per KG

To break it down for you

PBW is $27.50 per KG on Craftbrewer
WCB WASH is $3.38 per KG (calculated on 25kg Percarb, 12.5kg Metasilicate, 5kg Disodium Phos)

so that's 88% cheaper than PBW!

Cheers Rob.

 

[Ross]

I'm sure there were over 10 ingredients in PBW according to John's talk at the ANHC.

No doubt you can make something from local ingredients that will be pretty effective, but it won't be PBW.

cheers Ross

Edit: PBW is available in bulk for approx $10 a kilo.

 

[MarkBastard]

How was the effectiveness Rob?

I have found PBW to be significantly better than 'home brand napisan' at 'hard jobs'. For example I had some second hand andale taps that gave my beer a metallic taste and napisan was not helping. PBW on the other hand did its magic quite quickly.

If this fake PBW mixture is really as good as PBW then that is great. If it's closer to napisan then the convenience of napisan means I'd probably rather just buy it from the supermarket to be honest.

 

[brettprevans]

bulk from Ross @ $10 a kilo would be cheaper in ingrediants and time and effectivess compared to a home made job IMO. I know what I would be doing.

oh and I found the threadI was refering to above - link
it wasnt pbw though, it was pure Sodium Percarbonate @ $4kg.

 

[Galamus]

Thanks guys, some great ideas. A few questions;
-Ross how much PBW to get the price down to $10?
-How do people generally use their PBW, I have been using it as CIP however I wonder if its more useful the same way MHB mentioned the use of caustic.
-Does anyone know a convenient/cheap place to get a SS spray ball?

Cheers

 

[Ross]

Comes in a 50lb (22.7kg) pail for $258.

We've just been supplying to the micros, so not on the site, but happy to supply anyone.

Cheers Ross

Edit: we have removed caustic from our brewery (nasty stuff) & have replaced with PBW - Our brewery staff are very happy with the change.

 

[gregs]

I'm sure there were over 10 ingredients in PBW according to John's talk at the ANHC.

No doubt you can make something from local ingredients that will be pretty effective, but it won't be PBW.

cheers Ross

Edit: PBW is available in bulk for approx $10 a kilo.

Ross do you have the $10.00 per kilo price on your site and how much do I have to buy to get that price? Sounds like a good deal.

 

[yardy]

Ross do you have the $10.00 per kilo price on your site and how much do I have to buy to get that price? Sounds like a good deal.

let us know if you need more bodies to get onboard with this greg :icon_cheers:

Dave

 

[gregs]

let us know if you need more bodies to get onboard with this greg :icon_cheers:

Dave

I'll do the ask around and get back to you Dave.