Overwhelmed And Its Pi#$$*s Me Off

[citizensnips]

Oright well I'm wanting to do an extract brew and obviously there is a tit load of information on this website so its quite hard trying to decide what to do with so many choices. Im trying to make a refreshing mainstream beer through extract methods.
Now what i have gathered so far is that i want a general ratio of 70% 30% sugars as this is what breweries like CUB use. So this is quite easily achievable if i was wanting to just use Light Dry Malt and Dextrose however i wouldn't mind using some crystal as I have never used this before.

So my first question is with a specialty malt such as crystal (it is speciality right?) what in terms of fermentable sugars are extracted out of it?. I say this because when it comes to boiling your hops you want to get the right gravity to get the best utilisation.

Now when using LDM there is the general rule of thumb 100g's per L, however when using crystal how much do you use to get the best hop utilisation. And is there any limit to the amount of crystal you could use such as using a kilo of crystal or 300g's?, that is if your wanting to substitute grain for malt extract?

As well as this does anyone have any suggestions for the hops i should use. I know POR are used alot in beers like VB however is it ok to use these for bittering flavour and aroma? what other hops could be used with POR to achieve the style im after? another question is how many Litres do i need to boil the hops in to get the right ratio of bitterness and therefore what amount of hops do you use?

To be honest it all seems to confusing to me if you are trying to achieve what you want. I guess thats why many stick to K&K......but like the majority here, we all want to achieve greatness.
Help
Cheers
Eddy

P.S - If anyone has a recipe that they think would suit this style, please feel free to wing it this way.

 

[Renegade]

So my first question is with a specialty malt such as crystal (it is speciality right?) what in terms of fermentable sugars are extracted out of it?. I say this because when it comes to boiling your hops you want to get the right gravity to get the best utilisation.

Almost none. When you are doing your recipe calculations, dont even count the crystal steep. You should also limit the amount you use to >200 grams for the first time.

 

[clean brewer]

Mate, go to the Recipe DB and Click on "Method(say extract)" and click on "Style(ale,lager)" and see if there is something there that takes your fancy for a start... Or gives you an idea, there is so much out there......

 

[Phoney]

As for how much water to steep with:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=80

A: The amount of water is not set in stone; it isn't actually entirely relevant. In short, the volume should be at minimum 3 times the weight of the grain (i.e. 3L/kg). Rinsing should be done with a similar amount of water. In practice, it's usually quite a bit more.for example, for 250-500g of grain, soaking in 2L, and rinsing with another 2 litres would be absolutely fine

 

[peas_and_corn]

Oright well I'm wanting to do an extract brew and obviously there is a tit load of information on this website so its quite hard trying to decide what to do with so many choices. Im trying to make a refreshing mainstream beer through extract methods.
Now what i have gathered so far is that i want a general ratio of 70% 30% sugars as this is what breweries like CUB use. So this is quite easily achievable if i was wanting to just use Light Dry Malt and Dextrose however i wouldn't mind using some crystal as I have never used this before.

Crystal is a grain, and I would recommend that you get your procedure down pat before introducing grains. I would also recommend against using too much sugar, it makes the beer thin. Try using 100% extract, it will give you a fuller, better tasting beer.

So my first question is with a specialty malt such as crystal (it is speciality right?) what in terms of fermentable sugars are extracted out of it?. I say this because when it comes to boiling your hops you want to get the right gravity to get the best utilisation.

Crystal will ginve you *some* sugars but it's more about providing colour and flavour.

Now when using LDM there is the general rule of thumb 100g's per L, however when using crystal how much do you use to get the best hop utilisation. And is there any limit to the amount of crystal you could use such as using a kilo of crystal or 300g's?, that is if your wanting to substitute grain for malt extract?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here. Crystal is an adjunct- it never makes a large amount of the grain bill, as it provides little more than colour and flavour. If you want to sub grain for extract you will need to use a base malt such as pale malt, but then you would have to have a proper mash in order to extract the sugars properly. However, I would recommend you begin with extract beers and then add some specialty grains to get the knowledge of how to work with grains through steeping, and then work your way up to mashing.

As well as this does anyone have any suggestions for the hops i should use. I know POR are used alot in beers like VB however is it ok to use these for bittering flavour and aroma? what other hops could be used with POR to achieve the style im after? another question is how many Litres do i need to boil the hops in to get the right ratio of bitterness and therefore what amount of hops do you use?

To be honest it all seems to confusing to me if you are trying to achieve what you want. I guess thats why many stick to K&K......but like the majority here, we all want to achieve greatness.
Help
Cheers
Eddy

P.S - If anyone has a recipe that they think would suit this style, please feel free to wing it this way.

I'm not sure what style you're going for. If you're trying to copy VB, then you only really need a small addition of POR at 60 min. Though this is assuming you're using only extract + some grains and you're doing a full boil.

 

[Renegade]

Good advice. You should also know that, even with specialty grains like crystal:

1. Steep them, do NOT boil the grains in liquid or you'll get some nasty flavours.
2. After straining, then boil the resulting liquid to kill any bacteria etc. This can also be part of your hop boil, no need for a separate pot.

I disagree with the above post, I reckon you should jump in with specialty grains now if you want to. Its pretty easy, but just make sure you do it properly and that you dont use too much.

 

[Neill]

All good info there.

I would only add one thing; if you want to make VB, then just go and buy some. If you want something refreshing with nice body and easy drinking, then you've come to the right place. Bear in mind it will be hard to make something that tastes as bad as VB, even if you totally stuff it up you will probably end up with a craft beer that is much more interesting than megaswill

 

[sinkas]

+1 for go and buy megaswill if that what you want, it doesnt make sense to buggerize around with this brewing stuff to reacreate something you can buy for $30 a block

 

[Wonderwoman]

All good info there.

I would only add one thing; if you want to make VB, then just go and buy some. If you want something refreshing with nice body and easy drinking, then you've come to the right place. Bear in mind it will be hard to make something that tastes as bad as VB, even if you totally stuff it up you will probably end up with a craft beer that is much more interesting than megaswill

:lol:

 

[jonocarroll]

I disagree with the above post, I reckon you should jump in with specialty grains now if you want to. Its pretty easy, but just make sure you do it properly and that you dont use too much.

You shouldn't disagree. All-Grain isn't technically hard to do as such - I'm sure many AG brewers on here could practically do it in their sleep by now. The point is that to know what impact all the things you do will have on the beer, there is a fair bit to learn.

I say, crawl before you walk, and understand just what a 100% extract beer entails before jumping in and adding things that you won't be able to recognise the contribution of.

I would only add one thing; if you want to make VB, then just go and buy some. If you want something refreshing with nice body and easy drinking, then you've come to the right place. Bear in mind it will be hard to make something that tastes as bad as VB, even if you totally stuff it up you will probably end up with a craft beer that is much more interesting than megaswill

<nose turned up> Well, i don't happen to like Kronenberg 1664. If you want to make something as awful as that, don't bother.

@eddy22 - if there's something you want to make, ignore everyone who tries to tell you not to bother making it just because they don't like it. If VB is the beer you wish to replicate or improve on, then all the best to you. I believe there are a few discussions; try using the search feature for VB. This hobby will allow you to fine tune exactly what it is that you like about beer and hone in on what brings those qualities to your beers.

Good luck :icon_cheers:

 

[jonocarroll]

+1 for go and buy megaswill if that what you want, it doesnt make sense to buggerize around with this brewing stuff to reacreate something you can buy for $30 a block

Gee, I never thought of it like that. I'm heading home to throw out my flour and bread yeast; no point making bread if I can get it cheap at the shops. Oh, and I guess I'll chuck out that spag. sauce I made; seems Leggos make stuff in a tin for you now. All those little electronics projects can go - they mass produce the devices I was building. No point keeping any of the stuff I make myself if I can buy it somewhere... Dang. If only I got some sort of enjoyment or sense of self-satisfaction out of making something myself and enjoying the end product. Oh well. <_<

 

[Bribie G]

A mainstream beer like Carlton Draught or Melbourne Bitter, despite Fosters liberal use of sugar, actually has a bit of malt flavour behind it, but IMHO 100% malt extract would make it a bit heavy in flavour and body. Don't get me wrong, it would turn out a good brew, but since you are aiming more for a Carlton style then personally I would still go some sugar.

Having said that, the next thing to consider is that the malt flavour and aroma you get from extract is different to what you get from mashing grains like the brewery does, so this is another argument why it might be an idea to pull back a bit on the extract. Then put a bit of 'grain' back in, and an excellent steeping grain for this is Carapils, maybe 300g. Carapils adds a distinct light grainy flavour and improves head and lacing heaps. It gives the beer a smoother 'mouthfeel'.

Hops: Carlton mainstream brews are hopped on their way to the packing line using an extract they make at their Melbourne facility and have done since the 1960s AFAIK.

My grain based 'house lager' is an attempt at the old 'blonde' Carlton Draught I used to drink way back before it got relaunched with a new recipe and the "Brewery Fresh" hype and w$nk. I use 20g of Superpride boiled for 90 mins, (for an extract brew 60 mins would do), boiled with a bit of the extract and the steepings from the Carapils.

Hope I haven't confused you even more.... if I wanted to run up an extract 'quickie' along my house lager lines I would go:

• 2kg LDME
• 500g white sugar (inverted by boiling in a litre of water with a quarter teaspoon citric acid)
• 300g Carapils steeped
• 20g Superpride OR 30g Pride of Ringwood, one addition, no aroma hops required.
• A true lager yeast like s-23 or even just a Morgans proper lager yeast in the blue packet.

Pity your'e not in Bris, I'd sling you a bottle of the grain-based one :icon_cheers:

Another way to go is to use a neutral kit like Coopers Lager which has some POR in it already, use maybe an extra 15g POR pellets, the carapils and instead of adding the kilo of sugar, do a mini mash of 1.5k of a nice golden malt grain such as Galaxy. And add maybe 300g sugar to the fermenter.
I've experimented with a series of similar brews and they turned out pretty good, but I've moved on to grain beers now.

 

[petesbrew]

@eddy22 - if there's something you want to make, ignore everyone who tries to tell you not to bother making it just because they don't like it. If VB is the beer you wish to replicate or improve on, then all the best to you. I believe there are a few discussions; try using the search feature for VB. This hobby will allow you to fine tune exactly what it is that you like about beer and hone in on what brings those qualities to your beers.

Good luck :icon_cheers:

+1 Quantum.

I tried someone POR lawnmower-lager the other month, and it tasted and smelled just like a typical aussie beer, not to my taste but good for a summer quencher.
However, he made it again, but late hopped it with Sterling, (I think), and boy, did it taste great!

Eddy, Go and buy "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff & John Palmer, or Charlie Papazians Homebrew for beginners book (can't remember the exact name). Papazian's book is great to learn on and has heaps of info & recipes for Knk, extract, partial and all grain.

Also yeah, you can still just Pimp up a Kit, and have fun learning before you hit extract/partials/AG.

Cheers
Pete

 

[manticle]

I'd be with quantum brewer on this one. I don't like VB at all but I'm not making eddy's beer and he's not making it for me.

I'm also a fan of the learning in stages approach as it does give you a feel for what each ingredient and process change brings to the mix.

 

[Renegade]

A lager yeast probably isnt a good suggestion unless theres some decent temperature control. Can this be used without a fridge in the southern states during winter ?

And it's highly unlikely that he will be making a VB clone anyway, and will be so surprised at the outcome that it will compell him to move further into good beers. But if not, who cares, at least he's making beer that he loves, and its still half the price, if thats important at all.

 

[Jerry]

eddy22,

Back in my extract days I almost always substituted some of the malt extract for dextrose. I used dry malt extract 99% of the time. Because the extract doesnt ferment out completely I always found the resultant beer was quite cloying.

I found by using a little dextrose it thinned the beer down a little making it easier to drink. I dont remember ratios but I think it was around 10% dextrose.

Using crystal malt will certainly add another dimension. I used it occasionally, but always sparingly, as using too much resulted in a beer that I found too sweet and cloying.

Best way to find out what you like is to do a few experiments.

All extract, extract / dextrose mix and different amounts and types of crystal grain. Lots of combinations.

As for Pride of Ringwood. I use it quite a bit. Its a great bittering hop and I like using it for flavour and aroma as well.

It also goes well with lots of other varieties. Try it with Cascade or Amarillo for an American pale ale.

Scott

Edit - I should say that I only use POR for flavour and aroma when I'm using it as a single hop in an Aussie pale ale.

 

[chappo1970]

+1 BribieG

@BribieG you would be one of the best clone artists here on the forum. I have got to also say that he does it by feel and experience. No software just plain know how and a willingness to experiment. I look forward to our monthly BABBS meeting and one of the main reasons is to try one of Bribies latest beers. Kudos to you mate!

Eddy22 I would listen to what you want to do. If you reckon extract is your next jump then do it and don't let anyone else tell ya different. If VB or alikes are your bag then that's fine too, I reckon a lot of us on here started out wanting to recreate our favourite megaswill and then turned to other beers because our tastes changes and matured.

I can understand your frustration and confusion because like everything in this hobby there is more than one way to skin a cat. So listen to what sounds sensible and do-able and discard the rest. At the end of the day your the Head Brewer in your Brewery, yeah?

I guess what the guys are trying to say, in a round about way, is it is just near impossible to create an exact clone of a popular commercial brand, some have come very close. But that's the rub, close, not exactly it. What you will get thou is a superior beer because you will get flavour, aroma and taste that just isn't in the megaswills. It is however present in the craft beers. Maybe try some craft beers like Little Creatures Pale Ale or Pilsner. James Squire Pils. Anyway those styles and flavours are possible to a degree.

As for an Kits and Bits recipe:

Coopers Lager Kit
1kg BE2
12g Pride Of Ringwood (tea bag)
S05

4.6%alc

Actually looking at your OP you want to do an extract so leave it with me and I'll see what I can rustle up for ya and do some step by step instructions. Might take some time ATM but I'm happy to help.

Geez guys he just wants a hand god forbid some advice to stepping up to extract not a pasting or lecture over the virtues of megaswill and or trying to recreate it. <_<

Chappo

 

[petesbrew]

FWIW, the Coopers Aussie Pale Ale, and Canadian Blonde Kits are great base kits for experimenting with.
I've made Pale Ales, Amber Ales, even a raspberry blonde out of them. They seem to be reasonably low hopped, so great for hop additions.

 

[sinkas]

Gee, I never thought of it like that. I'm heading home to throw out my flour and bread yeast; no point making bread if I can get it cheap at the shops. Oh, and I guess I'll chuck out that spag. sauce I made; seems Leggos make stuff in a tin for you now. All those little electronics projects can go - they mass produce the devices I was building. No point keeping any of the stuff I make myself if I can buy it somewhere... Dang. If only I got some sort of enjoyment or sense of self-satisfaction out of making something myself and enjoying the end product. Oh well. <_<

OK Turkey-Tickler, if you want to spend time at the stove creating leggo's great, but surely you want for the better

 

[citizensnips]

Thanks all, especially BribieG and Chappo. The advice was very helpful and Chappo if you have an extract recipe that would be great, dont worry to much about instructions.
From alot of the posts i think you presume im less experienced than it looks. I have many brews under my belt, have done many kits and bits and what not but have not done extract. The reason i post these questions is because im trying to find the perfect method.... however there just is not one around....from what i've gathered it just comes down to good knowledge of brewing and the brewer himself/herself. And as for suggesting for me to buy the megaswill (Neill and Sinkas) all i can say is QuantumBrewer posted my response only worded better.
Cheers
And as for the record im a Melbourne Bitter man not a VB