Other Comps With Specialty Category?

[Stuster]

Nevermind a judge is always more competent then a steward.

I don't think so. Everyone can make mistakes. Could be a number of reasons why Fourstar's beer didn't get judged right.

There have even been cases of brewers making mistakes and not putting any extra information about their beers that have been entered into the specialty category. h34r:




And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that's what Fourstar did.



Ok, it was me.

 

[kook]

I can't state how it is at other comps - however for WASABC an effort was made to group the specialty beers into an order that would help to reduce palate fatigue for the judges. This meant paler beers and lagers (i.e. styles such as kristalweizen) being judged before heavily spiced beers.

As for judging, it really comes down to the brewer providing as much information as possible on the form though, as that is what the beer will be evaluated against.

 

[Fourstar]

OMFG!!! Serious? You cant be, retract or confirm the statement?

Yep, you must have skimmed this part (see below)

I get a note on my scores with "Sorry, style wasn't communicated to judges, will fix our procedures for next year".

I'm just assuming thats was the case considering stewards bring the beers to the table with entry number and style/category. Unless the registrar did not convey these details to the stewards with the entry, thats the only other thing i can think of. Even so, the steward should have been the next point of call (or the head steward) to intervene if the correct infromation was not being given to the judges for the specialty category. If i was stewarding that flight, that would be the 1st thing i ask. "What? No style description given? Are you sure, can you check?"

Its part and parcel to provide that information with the specialty entry so it would seem odd not to recieve that information upon judging. Or at least thats the way i see it.

Im not having a go at anyone who was judging or stewarding that flight, but attention needs to be taken in next years comp as its not worthwhile entering in that category if you are not getting judged correctly. Or some are and some are not (given the scores of the winning entrants).

I wouldn't think i would need to write an essay for a simple beer such as a "hazelnut brown ale". It seems self explanatory to me. Its not like its a new coined style to deal with, merely and addition of Hazelnut to an already existing style.

I would be the first to acknoweldge, stupitity.
Nevermind a judge is always more competent then a steward. Shithouse comment.Really takes from the "we all put in" mantra.
Maybe next year I wll judge specialties!

I'll join you on that one, That is if im not entering anything! I'll just have to give myself a month to write a thesis on the beer, have it professionally bound and find a publisher. :lol:

 

[jayse]

I wouldn't think i would need to write an essay for a simple beer such as a "hazelnut brown ale". It seems self explanatory to me. Its not like its a new coined style to deal with, merely and addition of Hazelnut to an already existing style.

That is almost enough but I would put it as either 11b northern or 11c southern brown etc (or whatever numbers are used for styles in the comp) then the mention of hazelnut is all that is required in this instance.

 

[Fourstar]

That is almost enough but I would put it as either 11b northern or 11c southern brown etc (or whatever numbers are used for styles in the comp) then the mention of hazelnut is all that is required in this instance.

Yeah, i could have been pushing for an American Brown ale too. That was probably more to style with the ABV and the wider interpretation it has, not to mentioned in the overall impression it was commented to be "slightly to hoppy/bitter" (although American Browns call for hoppyness.) The only issue is an American hop aroma/flavour is an optional extra in this style but if interpereted incorrectly it may be judged as a requirement.

Decisions Decisions!

 

[BrenosBrews]

Yep, you must have skimmed this part (see below)



I'm just assuming thats was the case considering stewards bring the beers to the table with entry number and style/category. Unless the registrar did not convey these details to the stewards with the entry, thats the only other thing i can think of. Even so, the steward should have been the next point of call (or the head steward) to intervene if the correct infromation was not being given to the judges for the specialty category. If i was stewarding that flight, that would be the 1st thing i ask. "What? No style description given? Are you sure, can you check?"

Its part and parcel to provide that information with the specialty entry so it would seem odd not to recieve that information upon judging. Or at least thats the way i see it.

Im not having a go at anyone who was judging or stewarding that flight, but attention needs to be taken in next years comp as its not worthwhile entering in that category if you are not getting judged correctly. Or some are and some are not (given the scores of the winning entrants).

I wouldn't think i would need to write an essay for a simple beer such as a "hazelnut brown ale". It seems self explanatory to me. Its not like its a new coined style to deal with, merely and addition of Hazelnut to an already existing style.



I'll join you on that one, That is if im not entering anything! I'll just have to give myself a month to write a thesis on the beer, have it professionally bound and find a publisher. :lol:

Well I wasn't going to bring it up but seeings as you already did the main reason I started this thread is because I entered two beers in this category and the notes for neither got to the judges. The exact same thing was written on my entry form about notes not getting to the judges, will fix for next year etc.

I admit one was fairly ordinary and I didn't have high hopes but the other ended up doing fairly well given the lack of info the judges had and I believe got marked down because of having no notes.

For the record it was supposed to be a Belgian IPA but it was suggested that it was more of a Saison and as such shouldn't be in the Specialty category. I honestly believe if they got the notes it could have been a 105-110 point beer which would have put it in the top 3.

At least I now have almost a year to perfect the recipe?

 

[jayse]

The only issue is an American hop aroma/flavour is an optional extra in this style but if interpereted incorrectly it may be judged as a requirement.

Decisions Decisions!

Yes there is room for quite a debate on this and wether it is right or not I would imagine many judges interperet american style hopping as a requirement, even if it is listed as a 'may have' or 'can have' rather then 'should have' if it is not there at all many judges will possibly not judge as highly as if it was there. Irrelevant if this is right or wrong I think it is the case and to score the highest points possible I would say it is a requirement based on my experience.

I am talking about the difference between a good example of the style and a super doopa beer of show gold medal scoring beer. Ie to get the gold medal score the hop character requirements goes from 'can have' to 'should have' if that makes sense.

I personally doubt I would be giving a american brown ale a gold medal score if it lacked some american style resiny hop character but in the speciallty section given the words hazelnut I possibly wouldn't take as many points off for not having hop character. You wouldn't want it too bitter either as that would take away from the malt character needed, anyway I think I may be getting a bit off topic.

 

[Fourstar]

Yeah i completly agree and get what you are saying jayse. Thats the problems with style guidelines, they are guidelines and interpretations can vary from one judge to the next.

Cheers.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Yes there is room for quite a debate on this and wether it is right or not I would imagine many judges interperet american style hopping as a requirement, even if it is listed as a 'may have' or 'can have' rather then 'should have' if it is not there at all many judges will possibly not judge as highly as if it was there. Irrelevant if this is right or wrong I think it is the case and to score the highest points possible I would say it is a requirement based on my experience.

I am talking about the difference between a good example of the style and a super doopa beer of show gold medal scoring beer. Ie to get the gold medal score the hop character requirements goes from 'can have' to 'should have' if that makes sense.

I personally doubt I would be giving a american brown ale a gold medal score if it lacked some american style resiny hop character but in the speciallty section given the words hazelnut I possibly wouldn't take as many points off for not having hop character. You wouldn't want it too bitter either as that would take away from the malt character needed, anyway I think I may be getting a bit off topic.

Have you down to judge Specialty Category at 2010 SABSOSA now jayse. Thanks for volunteering :lol: !

I agree with those stating that if you brew the beer you need to convey exactly what your base style was and then what you used/did to make it a specialty beer. I have judged this category 2 years running and have to say it throws up a gamut of weird and wonderful beers and they can be difficult to judge.

C&B
TDA

 

[Hutch]

It seems the judges where totally unsure what style it was due to poor stewarding. One with "chocolate stout?" in overall comments, another with "more info required on submission please" and one with recipe suggestions (even though there was no style to compare it against, moreso beer to style comparisons).

And yes, i did enter it cleary with "HAZELNUT BROWN ALE" written under name of brew and next to the style number notation on the entry form so i didnt enter it incorrectly either.

Nevermind a judge is always more competent then a steward.

Fourstar,
A little unfortunate for you that yours wasn't judged fairly, however in defense of the judges and myself (I stewarded the flight ), I distinctly remember having a lengthy discussion with Mark Hibberd and Tony Wheeler in relation to one particular "Spice, Herb, Vegetable Beer" that gave no other information to guide the judges on the the spice, herb or vegetable used, nor even the style the beer was brewed to. What they have communicated to you was that the current entry form does not explicitly allow for the appropriate details of the SHV sub-style and particulars required to judge the beer fairly. It was up to the brewer to decide where to write such detail on the entry form, which obviously you did, but somehow was not carried over to the master sheet, and therefore not available for me to provide to the judges.

I can say that most "SHV" beers in that flight did have sufficient detail for them to be judged appropriately, so it is probably just a bit of bad luck that yours did not, and was therefore not judged fairly.

I would assume, from the frustration of the judges, that next year there will be changes made to the entry forms to allow for some of the vagaries of the Specialty category.

Cheers,
Hutch.

 

[Fourstar]

I can say that most "SHV" beers in that flight did have sufficient detail for them to be judged appropriately, so it is probably just a bit of bad luck that yours did not, and was therefore not judged fairly.
I would assume, from the frustration of the judges, that next year there will be changes made to the entry forms to allow for some of the vagaries of the Specialty category.
Cheers,
Hutch.

Cheers Hutch, thanks for the feed back on it. I saw marks notes so im assuming he went through the results of the beers that where not judged correctly and noted on them accordingly. On Substyle i wrote "CAT#:Spice/herb/Vegetable - Hazelnut brown ale. on Beer name (optional) i clearly wrote "Hazelnut Brown Ale". When filling out the entry form i thaught it could not be any clearer. I just assume something slipped through the cracks from the registrar and entry form. (I dont know, do stewards see the entry form or is everything blind past the registrar?)

Cheers mate!

 

[floppinab]

Just to throw some more petrol on the fire here..........

I judged the specialities @ NSW this year. The guildelines Ross posted earlier missed one important point. For Spice, Herb, Vegetable category.

"THE ENTRANT MUST SPECIFY THE UNDERLYING BEER STYLE AS WELL AS THE TYPE OF SPICES, HERBS, OR VEGETABLES USED. IF THIS BEER IS BASED ON A CLASSIC STYLE (E.G., BLONDE ALE) THEN THE SPECIFIC STYLE MUST BE SPECIFIED. CLASSIC STYLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE CITED (E.G., “PORTER” OR “WHEAT ALE” IS ACCEPTABLE). THE TYPE OF SPICES, HERBS, OR VEGETABLES MUST ALWAYS BE SPECIFIED. "

So Fourstar if you've just listed your beer as a "Hazelnut Brown Ale" with no other accompanying info as per above then that is what probably led to the confusion. I would've thought in your case this mean stating where the "Hazelnut" came from, essence, nuts in the boil, any other spices added, etc. I think for the 12 odd beers we had only 2 really provided the info. as detailed in the guidelines. It's probably no coincidence that one of them won the category as it gave us a view of what the brewer was trying to acheive. Certainly there may have been some stewarding issues associated with that but if it is a BJCP/AABC comp then the above is whats required if you are going to enter a Speciality beer and get it judged properly.

 

[Fourstar]

"THE ENTRANT MUST SPECIFY THE UNDERLYING BEER STYLE AS WELL AS THE TYPE OF SPICES, HERBS, OR VEGETABLES USED. IF THIS BEER IS BASED ON A CLASSIC STYLE (E.G., BLONDE ALE) THEN THE SPECIFIC STYLE MUST BE SPECIFIED. CLASSIC STYLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE CITED (E.G., "PORTER" OR "WHEAT ALE" IS ACCEPTABLE). THE TYPE OF SPICES, HERBS, OR VEGETABLES MUST ALWAYS BE SPECIFIED. "

So Fourstar if you've just listed your beer as a "Hazelnut Brown Ale" with no other accompanying info as per above then that is what probably led to the confusion. I think for the 12 odd beers we had only 2 really provided the info.

How is that not qualifing those requirements?
- Type of spice/herb/vegetable - Hazelnut.
- Underlying beer style "Brown Ale".

Confusion? I dont think it can get much easier to interperet than that! Or do i have to goto the farting around of "This beer is a Brown ale, not of any particular 'classic style' to which hazelnut has been added to give the aroma and flavour of hazelnuts to compliment the underlying brown ale style." Either way, this wanst the case as NO style notes had been conveyed to the judges as i had notes on the score sheets stating "assume chocolate beer" which infact was completly incorrect.

As for where the hazelnut came from, thats none of the judges concern. What IS their concern is if it tastes/smells like a brown ale with hazelnuts and it compliments the underlying style.

Also no, the beer is not based on a classic style (northern/southern/American) so it doesnt have to be cited (but probabaly has less of a chance of getting top end scores as it blends into 3 possible categories).

Edit: crossover of posts.

 

[Hutch]

do stewards see the entry form or is everything blind past the registrar?

No, unfortunately! This might have helped clarify for the judges, however all I had on the running sheet was "Entry#, Specialty, SHV beer".
I double-checked the bottle, and spoke to Mark Hibberd (Head-Honcho), and concluded that the info was not provided.
Sorry that it resulted in a low score for your beer.

I'm sure the comp organisers are well-aware of the inadequacies of the entry form, and I can only assume something will be done to rectify this for next year's comp.

 

[Fourstar]

Sorry that it resulted in a low score for your beer.

Hey bud, not your fault. It was provided, more-so as a beer name which is quite obvious as to what it is and has in it. I just find it hilarious my Berliner Weisse beat the hazelnut brown in points and i considered it a flop! haha!

Cheers.

 

[Hutch]

- Type of spice/herb/vegetable - Hazelnut.
- Underlying beer style "Brown Ale".

Confusion? I dont think it can get much easier to interperet than that!

Hey 4*,
I think it's perfectly clear!
I also submitted an SHV, stating it was a "Vanilla Oatmeal Stout", and it got judged correctly. No different to yours in the way I described it (under "Name of Brew").

Just a bit of bad luck for you unfortunately.

 

[floppinab]

Either way, this wanst the case as NO style notes had been conveyed to the judges as i had notes on the score sheets stating "assume chocolate beer" which infact was completly incorrect.

As for where the hazelnut came from, thats none of the judges concern. What IS their concern is if it tastes/smells like a brown ale with hazelnuts and it compliments the underlying style.

Fair enough with regard to the style notes, it doesn't matter what you would have written if it's not passed on to the judges.

I disagree with the second point though, it would certainly impact my impression of your beer if it used an essence compared to real nuts (and yes I draw the inevitable comparision to a kit beer vs full mash), not to mention ensuring that if I got two "Hazelnut Browns", one with a bit of cinnamon and this and that and the other vs one with just Hazelnuts it gives me a chance to fairly judge the two.

 

[jayse]

Have you down to judge Specialty Category at 2010 SABSOSA now jayse. Thanks for volunteering :lol: !

Great I'll look forward to some peanut paste pilsners :icon_vomit:

 

[Hutch]

Great I'll look forward to some peanut paste pilsners :icon_vomit:

:lol:

Judging Pilsners this year, I was surprised by how many entries nominated as either German or Bohemian Pilsner, were up to their eyeballs in new-world hops. In fact as I recall, the best beer of the flight probably did not place because it was simply out of style as a German Pilsner - it was loaded with Nelson Sauvin, well balanced, clean, dry, very well made.... just not a German Pilsner by BJCP.
...was tempted to ask for the brewer's recipe on the judging sheet

 

[floppinab]

:lol:

Judging Pilsners this year, I was surprised by how many entries nominated as either German or Bohemian Pilsner, were up to their eyeballs in new-world hops.

Interesting, that did come to mind as I read through this thread. Seems a shame to have to enter these in the Other Specialty category, particularly when we are seeing many micros head down the same path.