Not Again

[sp0rk]

You can distill to your hearts contect in Aussie if you pay the tax man, un taxed I think its 5L wash max you are allowed to ferment,
I've been stilling for years and I am yet to go blind or die, must be doing it wrong

Nope, no alcohol distilling without paying tax
I remember a figure of around $70 per pure litre of alcohol being mentioned somewhere (don't know if this is actually correct)
You can make as much wash as you like untaxed, it's only once you distill it that it becomes illegal

 

[wbosher]

Sounds like a real Mickey Mouse system to me. :blink:

 

[rehabs_for_quitters]

Yeah jeez what are the playing at, it suprises me the Aussie laws are so tight on spirits yet so liberal on other brewing methods, you guys need to get your farmers involved they'll fix it

 

[Airgead]

Nope, no alcohol distilling without paying tax
I remember a figure of around $70 per pure litre of alcohol being mentioned somewhere (don't know if this is actually correct)
You can make as much wash as you like untaxed, it's only once you distill it that it becomes illegal

And its not just a matter of sending a few $ to the tax man each time you make a batch. You need to apply for (and be granted) an excise licence. That comes with a whole swag of conditions attached like the need to maintain a bonded area where spirits that have been made but not yet had the excise paid are kept securely. Regular inspections. Certified, calibrated equipment. Record keeping. All that jazz.

The tax man won't grant you an excise license unless you also hold a producer's license which comes with a bunch of other conditions and also requires permission from you local council and a DA to be submitted plus police background checks and a bunch of other stuff.

So its not just as easy as distilling to your heart's content and paying a bit of tax...

Cheers
Dave

 

[TimT]

Distilling laws really do seem very weird. Mind you there's never been anything consistent about our approach to brewing laws in Australia full stop - witness the endless battles about temperance, or six o'clock closing time, etc. Partly the laws that we have at the moment about distilling at home may be the result of previous anti-spirituous liquor campaigns: once something gets written into law it can be difficult to write it out again.

Then again, the laws may also have stayed as they are because multinational companies selling liquors and spirits may find them a convenient means to quash competition. Maybe they just lobby governments discretely about these laws...?

Guess someone on this site must know about the history of laws about distilling in Australia who could fill us in.

The laws are silly, it would be good to change them. The result at the moment seems to be that government turns a blind eye to small-time distillers - they get tolerated by the authorites, in other words. Not really satisfactory. Maybe a smart campaign by homebrewers, lobbying of local members, etc, over the next few years, could change that.

 

[Maheel]

must be getting easier to set up a distillery as there a fair few micro distillers either now in production or about to come on line

the rules are a fair bit tighter to stop any bad practice / dodgy "additions" going into end products
like metho mixed in re-"bathtub" gin and the issues in Thailand sometimes etc

their was talk of reducing the "bonded" costs for new players as it is very anti-competitive in nature
the fact distillers have had to pay tax on production not on sale of product stopped a lot of new comers i reckon
maybe they have done something about that issue ?

 

[Parks]

the fact distillers have had to pay tax on production not on sale of product stopped a lot of new comers

Pretty sure they have to pay tax on both.

 

[Airgead]

The laws are silly, it would be good to change them. The result at the moment seems to be that government turns a blind eye to small-time distillers - they get tolerated by the authorites, in other words. Not really satisfactory. Maybe a smart campaign by homebrewers, lobbying of local members, etc, over the next few years, could change that.

Commercially nope. No blind eye turned. If they catch you, you will be done for it. They do actively look for people selling without a license. You may get away with it if its just a couple of mates and no one blabs but its a risky business.

Distilling for home use though with no retail sales.... I think that's in the too hard to police bucket along with the "hydroponic tomatos". Of course if the police raid your house for any other reason and find your hooch (and hydroponic setup) they will do you for that as well. So be good.

A campaign to make it easier for new micro distillers to set up (along the lines of micro breweries and boutique wineries) would be very welcome.

Cheers
Dave

 

[HBHB]

The only legal issues are taxation law issues for those who do make it. Then for those who sell it, there's criminal laws issues to contend with.

Trouble is, there's so much misinformation out there.

The full details of the various recent and very unfortunate events will only be made public through the coroners court findings, but one thing is guaranteed - stupidity has been the sole cause of their undoing. Not ethanol.

These incidents are not caused by the average Mum and Dad distillers, but rather unresearched hillbilly techniques and taking stupid shortcuts to cheapen an already very cheap process for those so inclined.

Very unfortunate indeed.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its not that easy to get a distillers licence. You must have actively worked in a distillery under the supervision of a master distiller,unlike a brewery where you can just set up and go. The reasoning is so you dont produce and sell spirits with toxic elements. Not impossible, but very difficult. A degree in chem eng relating to distillation will help your cause.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Jimtom's looking at the worm ag'in.

On a commercial level - the fact that distillers and brewers need to pay excise upfront (with micros -even before rebates) and there's so much faffing around - it keeps the smaller guys from the market.

If I could pay lower excise, based on sales, I'd be at it in a heartbeat, because this section of Tas has a massive hole when it comes to good beer, and only one micro to fill it. That micro does decent beer, by stylistically very similar varieties. Not one decent AIPA or Saison or anything.

You pay tax on income after you earn it (and in the case of wages earners as you get paid). Unfortunately, you don't pay excise when you 'earn' income, but in the production of it.

If this strays off topic, I'll delete or hide my own post.

 

[Airgead]

Jimtom's looking at the worm ag'in.

On a commercial level - the fact that distillers and brewers need to pay excise upfront (with micros -even before rebates) and there's so much faffing around - it keeps the smaller guys from the market.

If I could pay lower excise, based on sales, I'd be at it in a heartbeat, because this section of Tas has a massive hole when it comes to good beer, and only one micro to fill it. That micro does decent beer, by stylistically very similar varieties. Not one decent AIPA or Saison or anything.

You pay tax on income after you earn it (and in the case of wages earners as you get paid). Unfortunately, you don't pay excise when you 'earn' income, but in the production of it.

If this strays off topic, I'll delete or hide my own post.

This is exactly why my commercial venture is a winery and not a brewery... Under the law, cider counts as wine for taxation purposes. As does mead.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Unfortunatly you have to pay tax on the alc produced, not sold. So if you have a spill or production losses its bad luck.

 

[np1962]

Not sure this is correct.
Excise is payable when the alcohol leaves the bonded store.
If you have spoilage or spillage or other losses then this can be claimed back.
As long as materials coming in is equivalent to alcohol leaving, including any losses, then all is fine.
Any losses are a problem as cost of production rises and profits drop.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

When I spoke to someone from the alcohol industry group within the ATO a while back ( about starting a micro ) he pointed out that they based the excise on the alc produced. He even cited a case of a producer having bottling losses but still had to pay the excise. You can claim back breakages.

And you have to keep very good records as they will check against what you brew.

 

[shaunous]

This is true.

They also wanna know recipes and ingredients in your stock so they can work out how much alcohol you could be producing and if your figures are well below or consistently below they send the audit man. But again like anything, there is ways around these things.

I can't see the news article, iPad won't bring it up, but this talk about milky liquid. That's the colour of methanol, as I'm sure some of you are aware. That's how a dodgy distiller tells when the methanol has finished distilling, and when the ethanol is starting it runs clear.

 

[Parks]

I can't see the news article, iPad won't bring it up, but this talk about milky liquid. That's the colour of methanol, as I'm sure some of you are aware. That's how a dodgy distiller tells when the methanol has finished distilling, and when the ethanol is starting it runs clear.

Sorry mate. That's absolute rubbish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I thought methanol turned milky in water

 

[Parks]

I'm sure this is already pushing the forum rules but I'll say milky comes from fusel oils which are much heavier than methanol and ethanol.

Note: I just saw this youtube clip of some guy mixing water and methanol for fuel and it did go cloudy. That would have been a massive amount of methanol though considering almost none is produced making beer, cider or wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQQNIPtsh_I

 

[Greg.L]

In Eastern Europe the traditional stills are used for making home brew plum brandy, slivovitz etc. The plums are crushed and then fermented "on the skins" in 40gal drums, not pressed first. Then the fermented plum marc is poured straight into the still to produce the brandy. They even grow a special cultivar of plums for making brandy. The still is shared around the village so everyone can make their own brandy. Fascinating tradition, you can see it on youtube.