Nochill Sanitisation Experiment

[ekul]

Hi everyone,

I started nochill because of a recurring infection. I'm pretty sure it was airborne and getting in when I was chililing my wort. Before going to nochill i replaced everything in my brew kit (bag, kettle, mash paddle etc) but to no avail. AS soon as i changed to nochill the infection went away, and i was very happy

I'm generally pretty anal about sanitation*, but a few batches ago i had to suck on the siphon to get it started, it kept getting blocked with flowers. I didn't get an infection and was very happy.

The next batch i did i decided to do a little experiment to see how unsanitary i could get. I sanitised a 2L bottle and then filled it up with some left over wort (i usually have a few litres left). But before filling it up i decided to spit in the bottle, to make sure there were some greeblies crawling around.

I didn't fill it up completely so that i could see it swelling. I left a little air in there as well to make sure that things can grow. The other thing is i didn't leave the bottle on its side either (because i forgot) so it seems the heat from the wort has sanitised the lid as well.

Anyway that was like 2-3 weeks ago and i just found the bottle then when i was cleaning up, its still fine, there's not even any mould in there that i can see. The wort isn't very clear though, i think thats because of the rice and wheat.


I'm going to hang onto the bottle for a few more weeks, but if it works there are a few good things to come out of this. First of all I can relax a little more on brewday, starting my siphon with my mouth is so much easier, especially when using flowers and everything gets blocked up.
The other thing is that i can start saving wort for starters. I usually have at least 2L (sometimes 5L) of wort left over, but i don't have the freezer room to freeze it all. Now i can just bottle (in plastic) and keep it in the fridge until i need it.


Anyway, i hope someone has found this of interest. I'll put up the photo when i get some new batteries for my camera, although it just looks like a bottle of hazy beer


*I usually make up a 4L bucket and everything gets drenched. I used to start the siphon with sanitiser etc.

 

[Malted]

Hmm syphoning hot wort from the kettle and starting the syphon with your mouth you say???
Not an advised practice. Get one of those auto syphons with the marble in the end or lash out on a March pump.

 

[QldKev]

Remind me not to grab a starter from your place

Although the heat will kill most bugs I still starsan my cubes. By the time you whirlpool etc and get the last of the cubes filled the temp of the wort will be dropping. I'm always worried that if I leave the whirlpool too long to allow it to settle/clear better, it will cool off enough that it will no longer be hot enough to keep itself sterile.

I think it was Ross who cools the wort to just below 85c with a chiller and then cubes it. The 85c temp is the minimun temp where the hops continue to become more bitter.

QldKev

 

[donburke]

I think it was Ross who cools the wort to just below 85c with a chiller and then cubes it. The 85c temp is the minimun temp where the hops continue to become more bitter.

QldKev

any idea what the minimum temperature that is needed for effective pastuerisation of the cube ?

 

[Malted]

any idea what the minimum temperature that is needed for effective pastuerisation of the cube ?

It is my belief that the magic number is around 70oC for most bugs

 

[Tim F]

it's not just heat though, its heat plus time. You can get the same effect with lower temp for longer or hotter for shorter time. I reckon this is why some people get contamination when no chilling into a cube but chucking it in water to cool faster.

 

[NickB]

I've always thought it was 75c... Remember that you need to be at or above this temp for at least 15 mins.

Cheers

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

it's not just heat though, its heat plus time. You can get the same effect with lower temp for longer or hotter for shorter time. I reckon this is why some people get contamination when no chilling into a cube but chucking it in water to cool faster.

I think you are right Tim. I chuck mine in the pool regularly to get the temp down (within 2 hrs) so I can pitch the same day. I did this recently with a brew and then let it sit for a week and she blew up like a balloon. It may have been coincidence but from now on its the pool for same day pitch and 'proper' no chill if the cube is to sit for an extended time.
Cheers
BBB

 

[jamiefbacon]

The other thing is that i can start saving wort for starters. I usually have at least 2L (sometimes 5L) of wort left over, but i don't have the freezer room to freeze it all. Now i can just bottle (in plastic) and keep it in the fridge until i need it.


Was wondering about this last brew day i also have a few liters left over and won't to save them for starters but not sure if it would be ok to run nearly boiling hot wort into say 2l coke bottles? Would the plastic leak anything into wort at those high temps? Does anyone do this at the moment or save wort somehow for starters when no chilling

Jbacon

 

[manticle]

I often save wort successfully into plastic jugs and juice containers. That small amount, by that time though, I do not expect to be at pasteurisation temps for long, if at all so I always reboil (also allows collection of extra which I can separate from break material overnight)

 

[[email protected]]

Pasteurization Unit (PU) is what is used to measure pasteurization if you google this you will get plent of information about pasteurization.

It has a formula to takes into account time and temperature and is referenced to 60degC. There are published PUs for finished beer and is somewhere in the order of 25 - 50 PUs for packaging.
Obviously there is no published data for cubed wort!

BBB,

I do the same as you and put the cube into the pool. However, always sanitise the cube and once the wort is in the cube roll around for a minute or two before placing in the pool. This works really well for beers where you want late hop flavour and aroma - probably is similar in cooling profile as a professional brewery. Generally I have pitched the next day but have had a few times it has gone longer (not more than a couple) and it has been OK. Other cubes which I know it is going to be longer I have used no chill method and then muck around with other techniques to get the hop aroma in.

Another way would be to cool the cube in the pool to around 80-85 C which I think would only take 10 minutes to stop utilisation and then let no chill to get the benefits of pastuerization and maintain hop aroma.

I have attached a chart with the PUs with time and temp from the Scandinavian Brewing School.

I'm also an agricultural brewer and use syphons. Those giggle ones are crap and block. What I use is a sump syringe - looks like a normal syringe but much greater volume - 80 to 100 ml available from BCF and other places (Supercheap?). Or use a galley water pump which is a bit more expensive.

View attachment TabelPUL_C3_A5st.pdf

 

[aaronpetersen]

I often save wort successfully into plastic jugs and juice containers. That small amount, by that time though, I do not expect to be at pasteurisation temps for long, if at all so I always reboil (also allows collection of extra which I can separate from break material overnight)

I store left over wort in glass preserving jars, just like preserving jam, fruit, etc. Sanitise jars and lids first then fill with boiling wort. Lasts for months (probably longer) that way.

 

[[email protected]]

Some of the PET bottles melt with boiling liquid in them. So just test the container you want to use first with boiling water to make sure it doesn't shrivel up.

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

BBB,

I do the same as you and put the cube into the pool. However, always sanitise the cube and once the wort is in the cube roll around for a minute or two before placing in the pool. This works really well for beers where you want late hop flavour and aroma - probably is similar in cooling profile as a professional brewery. Generally I have pitched the next day but have had a few times it has gone longer (not more than a couple) and it has been OK. Other cubes which I know it is going to be longer I have used no chill method and then muck around with other techniques to get the hop aroma in.

Another way would be to cool the cube in the pool to around 80-85 C which I think would only take 10 minutes to stop utilisation and then let no chill to get the benefits of pastuerization and maintain hop aroma.

I have attached a chart with the PUs with time and temp from the Scandinavian Brewing School.

I'm also an agricultural brewer and use syphons. Those giggle ones are crap and block. What I use is a sump syringe - looks like a normal syringe but much greater volume - 80 to 100 ml available from BCF and other places (Supercheap?). Or use a galley water pump which is a bit more expensive.

ABC
Yes I sanitise with starsan as well before siphoning (ezisiphon from GB) into cube and roll the wort around before the pool. It has worked well for me as well and the one infected batch might have been through not cleaning my cube super well. I ferment in the cubes and I have now started to use napisan and hot water soak for cleaning the crap out. I never used to do this (napisan tip picked up on AHB) ......
Cheers
BBB

 

[[email protected]]

BBB

Ah yes, 90% of good sanitation is cleaning!

I always napisan with hot water straight after to clean the cube - also throw in some tri-cleanium as well (tri-sodium phosphate) and leave for 24 hrs +. Rinse and then store with a litre or two of starsan.

Cheers,

 

[drtomc]

+1

I do much the same, except I mostly use iodophor, which should be handy just in case there is a nuclear accident near Melbourne[1]. h34r:

T.
[1] If you search on the web, you'll see that in Australia, the number of cases of iodine deficiency went up significantly when the dairy industry here stopped using iodophor.

 

[Florian]

Was wondering about this last brew day i also have a few liters left over and won't to save them for starters but not sure if it would be ok to run nearly boiling hot wort into say 2l coke bottles? Would the plastic leak anything into wort at those high temps? Does anyone do this at the moment or save wort somehow for starters when no chilling

I do this on a regular basis, I use any kind of soft drink bottle. Make sure to fill in the wort while still hot, I sometimes do this before I start the whirlpool, and always before I start draining to the cube. Most bottles shrink a bit when doing this, and I can't be sure that no chemicals leach into the beer, but it doesn't bother me until some one tells me that it is really dangerous. Make sure to press absolutely all air out of the bottles, have towels under neath to catch the wort that might run out of the bottles when doing so, and wear gloves or have tough hands.
Bottles are still very hot after a long time, so I assume that this is enough to fully pasteurise them, to keep for longer if necessary.

 

[ekul]

well it didn't get infected at all, even after considerable time. I decided to make it into a coopers starter to see if i could taste any nasties in it. A few days ago i needed some coopers yeast and i just realised i threw in my experiment instead of the coopers starter beside it! I spose we'll see how it goes for real now!