No Topic Thread

[bum]

Which is exactly what every Christian should be concerned about, of course. I'm not entirely for cultural imperialism of any description but nor am I into the idea of getting up people for being one of the very few who actually live in accordance with what their chosen god asks of them. Whether that request is reasonable or not - you'll have to take that up with the big guy.

I don't think MDS does a great deal in the way of feeding poor kids, etc. Aren't they more about emergency care in times of crisis? Obviously famine isn't great but they seem more attracted to conflict, etc. Very important organisation doing very important work but I'm not sure the comparison is appropriate.

 

[bum]

Jealous of that guy who corrected Obama's grammar on the Reddit AMA.

 

[Bribie G]

Over the years I have had truly excellent, polite and efficient service from Centrelink on the occasions I have required them. Medicare has been swift, courteous and accurate. My bank, whom I have been with since 1980 have been no trouble at all- never a moment's drama despite my whinges about banks charges over the years, but they have come down remarkably over the last few years.

Locally my Go Card for public transport has been hassle free - on the one occasion they misread my card and "fined" me $10 this was quickly refunded. The trains I use run on time 98% of the time and I find them dead reliable if I am committed to being at a certain place at a certain time. On my visits to Sydney I never fail to be impressed by the efficiency and timeliness of that excellent public transport system enjoyed by NSW.

Telstra has been exemplary - smooth seamless service with never an internet problem and during the floods whilst there was some disruption they answered my queries instantly and gave me updates on when landline problems would be fixed.

Foxtel have been terriffic. 110% happy - trustworthy and polite at their Australian call centre.

Currently I'm also with Vodafone with my new Galaxy and coverage is just fine and billing as advertised when I joined up.

My very few dealings with the police have been courteous and decent.

I have never been mugged or assaulted. I have never been burgled but my car was once stolen from outside the house in Caboolture by drug runners (it transpired) and to erase their forensic evidence they cleaned it and detailed it perfectly, ran it through a car wash and left it in a street in Wynnum with a full tank. It looked so good I had to blink twice to recognise it.


I'm beginning to think something is seriously wrong with my life :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

 

[bum]

MDS

Urgh. Was umming and ahhing between MSF and DWB.

Pistol Patch has been gone for some time. Why can't we edit our posts after more than 30 seconds later?

 

[manticle]

Which is exactly what every Christian should be concerned about, of course. I'm not entirely for cultural imperialism of any description but nor am I into the idea of getting up people for being one of the very few who actually live in accordance with what their chosen god asks of them. Whether that request is reasonable or not - you'll have to take that up with the big guy.

I don't think MDS does a great deal in the way of feeding poor kids, etc. Aren't they more about emergency care in times of crisis? Obviously famine isn't great but they seem more attracted to conflict, etc. Very important organisation doing very important work but I'm not sure the comparison is appropriate.

MSF are predominantly about delivering healthcare and humanitarian assistance (whatever that may entail) and yes they do work in areas of crisis. My comparison was more in response to the question 'who else is helping them' which is pretty open. MSF was merely a suggestion, mainly because they are a charity I respect and support. The one I linked to is most certainly not the only charity aiding children in impoverished areas.

I'm not sure every Christian should be more concerned with saving souls than with saving lives. To me, it's incredibly exploitative and differs very little from someone with an economic or nation building agenda exploiting those with nothing. I'd have to look through a bible again but prosetylisation does not seem to be a major tenet of what Big Beardy asks of his general sheep. Certainly doesn't exist in the Ten commandments. Instructions seem to push behaving oneself here, not being a righteous hypocrite, helping others and later - having faith in a dead lamb that came back to life. Weird stuff philosophically and logically a lot of it is to me* but the preachy part seems to be based mainly around some of the key figures, rather than something G and J want everyone to do.

I am in no way suggesting that all religious based charities are like that -although many possibly are - just that website was so unashamedly blatant. To this atheist it seems more opportunistic than anything else. Intention for good deeds in Christian scriptures is as important (or more so) than the dees themselves, at least in some passages. Good samaritan for example, just helps someone because they need it, not to get them onside with God.

*Yes I am Yoda

 

[bum]

To the best of my knowledge, these sponsorship programs (manipulative as they all are) are pretty much only run by Christian groups. These seem to be the most visible forms of aid work that remain in areas once the critical stuff is "over".

The texts of the religions we're primarily concerned with here are very, very clear on the future prospects of a soul that hasn't accepted The Word. Any Christian worth his salt should be concerned about others in this regard.

Obviously, I don't suggest that tying that up with some more immediate form of assistance is entirely ethically responsible (but let's be honest, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be refusing aid to individuals who aren't interested in hearing what they have to say). The spreading of god's message is entirely in line with scripture's word and intent.

 

[manticle]

Unicef, Oxfam, international humanity foundation and plan USA are all non religious affiliated groups that work with kids. Plan USA and IHF certainly use the sponsorship method, not sure about the other two. There are of course, many other organisations providing very important aid and relief and the child sponsorship model is simply one way of marketing charity (I'm not arguing that it doesn't need to be marketed or that the marketing itself is unsound or a bad idea).

Actually the religious texts aren't particularly clear about much at all, considering the different, ancient languages they were written in and the amazing amounts of ambiguity contained within which is exactly what has led to so much conflict between the three main surviving monotheistic abrahamic religions and the multitudinous offshoots of each within.

It's a huge area of discussion - both political and philosphophical that I'm probably not 100% keen on getting involved in here (I know that's a cop out but you get that) but I think the importance of preaching and saving souls within Christianity is a little like the popular Christian viewpoint on homosexuality - there's actually very little explicit text within the scriptures themselves to support the idea.

 

[bum]

but I think the importance of preaching and saving souls within Christianity is a little like the popular Christian viewpoint on homosexuality

I concur whole-heartedly.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Romans 10:10-17
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

It is true that there are far less references explicitly against homosexuality than people would imagine but it is a HUGE mistake to try to pretend that means Christianity might be down with a little man-on-man action. Homosexuality occurs out of wedlock - a great many "sins" are lumped together in this way and not mentioned explicitly. The big man, if his biographers are to be believed, is most definitely against same-sex unions.

 

[pk.sax]

Are I doomed then?

 

[glenwal]

Are I doomed then?

Romans 10:10-17
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

As long as you believe then you're fine.

 

[warra48]

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

It is true that there are far less references explicitly against homosexuality than people would imagine but it is a HUGE mistake to try to pretend that means Christianity might be down with a little man-on-man action. Homosexuality occurs out of wedlock - a great many "sins" are lumped together in this way and not mentioned explicitly. The big man, if his biographers are to be believed, is most definitely against same-sex unions.

This is a quote from an Old Testament book, and specifically aimed at the then Jewish people.
It no longer has relevence to us as a law, but is of historical and contextual importance.

Although there are texts in the New Testament against homosexuality, it does not order a death sentence for those involved in it.
My advice is to follow what bum has quoted from Romans.

 

[bum]

Are I doomed then?

May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

 

[bum]

This is a quote from an Old Testament book, and specifically aimed at the then Jewish people.
It no longer has relevence to us as a law, but is of historical and contextual importance.

Do you mean that passage, book or the entire testament?

 

[manticle]

I concur whole-heartedly.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Romans 10:10-17
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

It is true that there are far less references explicitly against homosexuality than people would imagine but it is a HUGE mistake to try to pretend that means Christianity might be down with a little man-on-man action. Homosexuality occurs out of wedlock - a great many "sins" are lumped together in this way and not mentioned explicitly. The big man, if his biographers are to be believed, is most definitely against same-sex unions.

Not intimating that it's down with men getting jiggy - just that there's been a more more focus on it than the scripture might suggest is warranted.

Leviticus also preaches that women experiencing menstruation should leave the camp and have no physical contact with people for a period during and after. and the fifth book, Deuteronomy,(leviticus being the third and linked historically since both also form a main part of the torah) has a wonderful take on rape, insisting that a woman who is raped in the city should have screamed louder and therefore should be put to death (along with the man). The woman who is raped in the country is much luckier - she gets to marry her rapist who must pay the appropriate bride price for her to her father.

Among those little tidbits is some other great information on appropriate living such as : Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together, do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together and make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

How that inspired various societies to believe that man 1 and man 2 should not pull each other off is beyond me.

I also wouldn't suggest that there's no references to preaching in the entire, massive tome that makes up the Christian Bible (any version too). What I'm suggesting is that the focus given to it is disproportionate considering the entirety of the text. Certainly God wanted to plunder rape and kill all the enemies of the Hebrews in earlier times and became a lot nicer later on (until the beast with the seven hundred horns, five tails and a bleeding ear invented a barcode to tattoo on people's heads before sending them into a very large dish of burning blood with a slutty chick married to an otter as punishment for trying to roast the holy lamb). It's just that there's an awful lot of other stuff contained within that focuses on the idea that those who wish to be with god should behave with charity, honesty and integrity and those values are supposed to be practised unconditionally. To my mind that means you help Jeff because he's hurt, not because he's a potential pew warmer.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not such organisations are purely following instructions, I have a major problem with the exploitative nature of blatant prosetylisation through charitable works and I reckon the Christian God that I don't believe in would be appalled too.

From Catch 22:

"You'd better not talk that way about Him, honey," she warned him reprovingly in a low and hostile voice. "He might punish you."

"Isn't He punishing me enough?" Yossarian snorted resentfully. "You know, we mustn't let him get away with it. Oh no, we certainly musn't let Him get away scot-free for all the sorrow He's caused us. Someday I'm going to make Him pay. I know when. On the Judgement Day. Yes, that's the day I'll be close enough to reach out and grab that little yokel by His neck and -"

"Stop it! Stop it!"

"What the hell are you getting so upset about?" he asked her bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement. "I thought you didn't believe in God."

"I don't," she sobbed, burting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be."

Full quote here:

And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yossarian continued, hurtling on over her objection. "There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else, He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about - a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a supreme being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when he robbed old people of their power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?"

"Pain?" Lieutenant Schiesskopf's wife pounced upon the word victoriously. "Pain is a useful symptom. Pain is a warning to us about bodily dangers."

"And who created the dangers?" Yossarian demanded, He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! Why couldn't He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead? Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn't He?"

"People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads."

"They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power he had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It's obvious. He never met a payroll. Why, no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him as even a shipping clerk!"

"You'd better not talk that way about Him, honey," she warned him reprovingly in a low and hostile voice. "He might punish you."

"Isn't He punishing me enough?" Yossarian snorted resentfully. "You know, we mustn't let him get away with it. Oh no, we certainly musn't let Him get away scot-free for all the sorrow He's caused us. Someday I'm going to make Him pay. I know when. On the Judgement Day. Yes, that's the day I'll be close enough to reach out and grab that little yokel by His neck and -"

"Stop it! Stop it!"

"What the hell are you getting so upset about?" he asked her bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement. "I thought you didn't believe in God."

"I don't," she sobbed, burting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be.
Yossarian laughed and turned her arms loose. "Let's have a little more religious freedom between us," he proposed obligingly. "You don't believe in a God you want to, and I won't believe in a God I want to. Is that a deal?""

 

[pk.sax]

May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

Thanks for suggesting dinner.

 

[bum]

Leviticus also preaches that women experiencing menstruation should leave the camp

I am 100% behind this.

Look, I'm not going to try to defend the wackier elements of either covenant (the newer one is not without its quirks, either). But it is absolutely central to Christianity to have love for your fellow man. That extends to caring for his welfare. How can you say you care for his welfare but not care for his eternal soul. Spreading the message is fundamental (if you'll pardon the pun) to the religion. Obviously, not necessarily in the Mormonistic manner where everyone must do it but it is certainly acceptable that those who hear the call get evangelical.

Thanks for suggesting dinner.

Hmmm...sacrilicious.

 

[pk.sax]

Hmmm...sacrilicious.

I'd leave you in lunch.

 

[manticle]

I am 100% behind this.

Look, I'm not going to try to defend the wackier elements of either covenant (the newer one is not without its quirks, either). But it is absolutely central to Christianity to have love for your fellow man. That extends to caring for his welfare. How can you say you care for his welfare but not care for his eternal soul. Spreading the message is fundamental (if you'll pardon the pun) to the religion. Obviously, not necessarily in the Mormonistic manner where everyone must do it but it is certainly acceptable that those who hear the call get evangelical.


Hmmm...sacrilicious.

Without access to a physical bible and loads of time on my hands (packing up house at the moment) I'm not going to continue to argue the point about preaching being overemphasised within the text. I will however return to the point I made in the last post that even if they are just following instructions, I find it unethical in the context of the link I posted.

I think charitable works (and many of those are executed by religious based NGOs) should be untainted by religious fervour in the same way I believe any decisions by state authority regarding the lives of their citizens should be. I believe as passionately in the religious freedom of all by the way - right to associate and practice within the laws of the society one inhabits (and the laws should endeavour to equally protect the philosophical and physical rights of its citezens.

Where's lecterfan when you need him?.

 

[pk.sax]

Where's lecterfan when you need him?.

Ignoring Bum's noodly appendage

 

[TasChris]

Without access to a physical bible and loads of time on my hands (packing up house at the moment) I'm not going to continue to argue the point about preaching being overemphasised within the text. I will however return to the point I made in the last post that even if they are just following instructions, I find it unethical in the context of the link I posted.

I think charitable works (and many of those are executed by religious based NGOs) should be untainted by religious fervour in the same way I believe any decisions by state authority regarding the lives of their citizens should be. I believe as passionately in the religious freedom of all by the way - right to associate and practice within the laws of the society one inhabits (and the laws should endeavour to equally protect the philosophical and physical rights of its citezens.

Where's lecterfan when you need him?.

Say his name 5 times into a mirror..I dare you