No Chill Whirpool

[beerbog]

Argon, do you find you have heaps of convection still going on after 20 mins waiting? If so does it play with your whirlpool?

Thanks. :beerbang:

 

[manticle]

Hi Gibbo. My burner is 4 ring mongolian. I find that the convection currents have subsided considerably after 20 minutes. Occasionally I'll leave it up to another 10 if I still think thy're moving too much. There is a very small amount of movement when I whirlpool but it's not much.

My whirlpool gets a good rapid motion going so it actually does look like a whirlpool rather than a gentle stir. I leave this for a bit and get good trub formation which stays in the centre away from the sides.

 

[argon]

Argon, do you find you have heaps of convection still going on after 20 mins waiting? If so does it play with your whirlpool?

Thanks. :beerbang:

what manticle said

edit: the rambo doesn't hold all that much heat after the thing's off... i'd say it'd be different with a 4 ring burner... being cast iron and pretty damn heavy, would be a decent thermal mass

 

[beerbog]

Hi Gibbo. My burner is 4 ring mongolian. I find that the convection currents have subsided considerably after 20 minutes. Occasionally I'll leave it up to another 10 if I still think thy're moving too much. There is a very small amount of movement when I whirlpool but it's not much.

My whirlpool gets a good rapid motion going so it actually does look like a whirlpool rather than a gentle stir. I leave this for a bit and get good trub formation which stays in the centre away from the sides.

Thanks guys, Manticle do you have HSA problems giving it a really good stir? :beerbang:

P.S I took the keggle off the burner to get it away from the heat but just seemed to retain so much. Mind you
i waited until it was pretty much still, not a small amount of movement as Manticle quoted. :beerbang:

 

[felten]

I use the manticle ala fents method for WPing as well and it leaves a great trub cone, you have to slow down your siphon flow when you reach the top of the cone though, otherwise it won't stay intact.

I find my 3 ring cools down within 20-30 mins, but my brewstand is still extremely hot, probably because its still in contact with the kettle.

 

[manticle]

None that I've noticed. I start the whirlpool gently around the outer edge then increase speed and bring it closer to centre. There is minor splashing but not loads and I try and minimise it. I keep the spoon straight and you can see the motion will actually pull trub to the bottom. I'm not sure if it's worth doing at all if you don't get this effect.

The method was shown to me by Fents who also brews with Kooinda so I figure he knows his stuff - certainly gives me much better cone formation than the way I used to do it.

 

[beerbog]

None that I've noticed. I start the whirlpool gently around the outer edge then increase speed and bring it closer to centre. There is minor splashing but not loads and I try and minimise it. I keep the spoon straight and you can see the motion will actually pull trub to the bottom. I'm not sure if it's worth doing at all if you don't get this effect.

The method was shown to me by Fents who also brews with Kooinda so I figure he knows his stuff - certainly gives me much better cone formation than the way I used to do it.

Thanks guys, I'll give it a whirl..... pardon the pun!!!! :beerbang:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

if you dont notice a difference to your bitterness when no-chilling - why would you change? BUT - the thing is, a lot of people did notice a difference. So a number of people did some work and some tests and had a crack at explaining the difference and quantifying it to an extent.

There is a difference - I have had chilled and no chilled beers tested in the lab to determine IBUs. Whether that difference is perceptible or important to you... different matter

You are unlikely to see much of a difference in beers without significant late hopping - and unlikely to see it even then if you are late hopping with anything but fairly high alpha hops. But bung a heap of late high alpha hops in to your kettle and there will be a change, you dont even need to put them into or let them get into your cube. There is a change.

If you are sensible - you will brew the beer with no changes to the schedule and see how it turns out - over bitter?? well, now you have an explanation and a suggested fix ... not over bitter?? Then you don't need to do anything at all.

As lovely as it is to not over complicate things - that doesn't give jack sprat of assistance to people who are actually experiencing a problem does it?

 

[mje1980]

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.

Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".

Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.

 

[Dazza_devil]

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??,

Makes sense to me, less hops and same result for bitterness.
Perhaps just dry-hopping in the fermenter or cube could make up for the loss of aroma.

 

[felten]

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.

Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".

Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.

This has been covered before, but it's not just about the bitterness but the changed aroma or lack of aroma that is affected by nochill. And that is why people try to make changes by using a french press, or cube hopping. Sure if you don't find a difference and don't care, great. But some people do and aren't really phased by trying different things to change it.

Seriously, french pressing and cube hopping is not complicated at all.

 

[big78sam]

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.

Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".

Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.

+1 for Felten's comment. It's not just about IBUs, if it was we'd all just do a 60 minute addition and leave it at that. The no chill CAN affect hop aroma and flavour. That's what I'm most concerned about. I don't think I would notice a 5 IBU difference

 

[Cocko]

Should look like this IMU:







Oh god, I have gone all BribieG posting this photo again! I must wrap it in a doona...

 

[manticle]

Pretty much what I'm talking about Cocko.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The thing that i think is odd, is that IF you notice your beers slightly more bitter, why not lower IBU calcs by 5 IBUs??, instead of going to high effort lengths to reduce them ( french pressing etc ). I don't notice a difference ( I did a 10 min APA 1.050 40 IBU and it was great ), but if i did, i'd just drop my calc'd IBU's by 5. Takes 2 seconds and no effort, instead of doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things to reduce the bitterness.

Im not saying people aren't finding no chilled beers more bitter, but i just find some of the solutions waaaaay over complicated to a simple "problem".

Every system is different, and everyone's tastebuds are different,so do what works. For me, not changing the no chill hop calc's works.

So - how do you calculate that then? When different amounts of bittering are coming from different parts of the boil? The amount of IBUs coming from your 60min or greater additions, is going to remain largely unchanged from a chilled to a no-chilled brew - but the IBU component from the later hops is going to be changed.

None of the formulas will do that for you - you have to make your "own" formula. And thats what I have been trying to say people might try to do - not actually move their hop additions to a different time - but to calculate them as though they were at a different time. Exactly what you are saying! .. but trying to help quantify how they might be able to calculate an appropriate reduction and/or anticipate how much more bitter the beer will turn out.

Example (calculations using Rager in pro-mash)

25L batch of a nice galaxy pale ale. Chilled "normally"

10g of magnum pellets (14%AA) @ 90mins
40g if Galaxy Pellets (14.5%AA) @ 5mins

and that calculates out at a nice pale ale bitterness of 33IBU

NOW - a no chill batch hopped in the same way. With the assumption that late hops give a bitterness as though they had been boiled for 15 mins longer.

so you calculate as though your additions were...

10g of magnum @ 90mins - because at 90 mins they are as utilised as they are going to get and the bitterness from 90min hops wont change
40g of Galaxy @ 20mins

and now it calculates out to 45.9IBU.

So what do you do?? You don't want to drop your late addition down because you want the flavour and aroma, so you drop your bittering addition down to compensate and you wind up with.

4g of magnum @ 90min
40g of galaxy @ 5mins

calculates to 33.8IBU and pretty close to your original target. So - exactly what you said, but with a little more "quantification" attached. Nothing to it - change your late additions in the software but not in real life - to 15mins earlier than they were before - and tweak down the IBUs from your bittering additions.

Of course, you can see if you turn that 40g of galaxy at 14.5% alpha into 40g of hallertau at 3.0% alpha and re-do the scenario - that it really only matters with high IBU hops added late. The calculations with the hallertau are that no-chilling turns a 23.3 IBU beer into a 26.5IBU beer, and its very unlikely that you could taste the difference.

Me personally - Mostly I don't add any hops at all to my kettle apart from bittering hops. I add all my post 60min hops directly to the cube (loose) and calculate them as though they were 20min additions. For me that fixes both the "no chill ruins hop aroma" & the "no chill makes my beer too bitter" problem in one action. My beers are as bitter as I expect them to be and with perfectly nice hop aroma. Transitioning from chilled to no-chilled batches - they weren't.

 

[mje1980]

Fair point thirsty boy. I save high AA hops for the boil, and mostly low alpha for late so i don't think it makes a huge difference in that case as you have shown. The 10 min APA i did i used 50g each of cascade and columbus, for a 20 litre batch and it was fine, so my "normal" hopped beers are fine also.

I just calc as i used to when chilling.

Yet to try cube hopping, but will give it a go soon.

 

[globe]

Hey does anyone know of any american home brew stores?
trying to take advantage of the aussie/dollar market at the moment.
All the ones I know only ship within the us.

Cheers

 

[globe]

Hey does anyone know of any american home brew stores?
trying to take advantage of the aussie/dollar market at the moment.
All the ones I know only ship within the us.

Cheers

 

[globe]

appollogies about my typing....
im after an immersion chiller from the us does anyone
know of a home brew store in the us that ships to oz.

cheers
Parko

 

[insane_rosenberg]

Hey globalbrewing,

Your totally off topic posting has revived an interesting thread! (I don't know the answer to your question, I suggest you search for a relevant thread or start your own new thread)

I don't worry about adjusting my late addition because I use the method in the following thread:
Late Hopping And Nochilling It Can Be Done!

Works a treat!