No chill in corny keg

[manticle]

Following on from this post:

that's easy, transfer hot wort to keg, purge head space with Co2, attach a sanitary filter to the gas in post via quick disconnect to allow for the vacuum.

When ready to ferment, open lid and insert O2 wand into wort and pitch yeast. Or displace Co2 in headspace with air and shake and roll.
Ideally I'd like to use something like this for oxygen input so the vessel doesn't have to be opened at all, but think it might clog up pretty quickly when left in the vessel.
Either use a spunding valve to ferment under pressure or attach airlock or filter to gas in post.

Ideally you'd shorten the dip tube so you can leave the yeast behind when either transferring to another keg or serving directly from the vessel.

can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?

I'm thinking of retiring my cubes if kegs are a viable alternative.
I know there's a few threads around on this but most are by users who aren't around anymore. There's a few possible negatives mentioned but I'm really interested in hearing from people who have done it. Basically just interested in minimising equipment if it's superflous as well as how easy kegs are to clean, even when left grotty for a while.

PROS: easy to clean and sanitise
Less equipment
Easy to transfer keg to keg with reduced oxygen pickup (and as I currently ferment directly in NC cubes, I'd be hoping to ferment in the keg and transfer purely to remove the beer from the yeast)

CONS:??


Cheers

 

[indica86]

Hmm, I like the idea of not using plastic.

 

[Bribie G]

Cons would be getting probably only 17 or 18 L of beer out of the keg as opposed to the full 19 as I do currently due to thick yeast cake robbing your volume. That adds up to a lot of beer over the course of the year. However swings and roundabouts I suppose, less equipment and less cleaning up. Hmm, WillamsKeg system anyone :unsure:

Edit: and the rush of thick yeast slurry through the tap on the first pour could go straight into a Schott bottle and saved for a starter.

Get this stuff out of my mind, please................................ :angry2:

 

[breakbeer]

I'd really like to hear about the pro's, cons & procedures too

 

[manticle]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

 

[Bridges]

Slightly different but I plan long term to use my stainless fermenter as a cube, with silicone bung and a filter
"0.2 Micron Air Filter These 0.2 Micron Air Filters will filter out microbes and bacteria. They can be used in many different ways. They can be used with our wort aerator pumps (above) so you can aerate your wort, or can be used as an airlock in the top of your fermenter. They can also be used to filter air going back into a cask when dispensing real ale."

I can't do it yet as my ferm fridge is too small so it won't fit, soon I will be upgrading so plan to go something like, make wort put into fermenter leave in place on shed floor all sealed up (with filter) until cool enough to handle safely then put into ferm fridge until wort hits pitching temp pitch and off we go.

I'm interested in no chill in a keg too though and would like to hear more about this process as at this stage I'm still getting my head around how I want to do things.

 

[Stimsoni]

I like the idea even if it's just being used to cool the wort in a enclosed container. When trying to cool in the pot as i'm doing now i've alway got a thought in the back of my mind 'I wonder if anything is going to get in'

You could also attached a tube to the end of the liquid pickup (may need to shorten it) and attach an air stone to aerate in there before transferring to the FV.

 

[mckenry]

It's something I have been thinking about for a while, but dismissed in the end because of the amount of trub and the amount of head space required. I reckoned I'd only get about 13.5L of beer out if each corny. I'm thinking about trying to get 38L out if a 50L keg. That should be doable, but bloody heavy to move in and out of a ferment fridge if I don't get it set up right.

 

[MaltyHops]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

What about rigging up some kind of reverse airlock - connect the keg to the top of a bottle 2/3 filled with sanitiser solution, put an aquarium airstone at the bottom of the bottle with a hose connected to the airstone open to the outside. This way the air coming in can hopefully be turned into very fine bubbles and any particles in the air get filtered by the sanitiser on the way up.

 

[r055c0]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

Would the risk be air being sucked in as the wort cools and contracts? I'm guessing the corny keg is designed to hold pressure in, not keep it out so if the pressure in the keg is below the pressure outside it would suck air through the gas in post, the liquid out post and the pressure release valve. You might be able to avoid this by attaching the keg to your CO2 while it cools?

 

[manticle]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.

 

[pk.sax]

Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).

Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, you could fill the headspace with oxygen and no need to shake the bugger around.

 

[pk.sax]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.
R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.

What you are missing is that the cooled wort will absorb an immense amount of gas. The headspace pressure needs to be such that the volume is accounted for.

Edit: work it out and make sure that it won't blow the prv by itself.

 

[wobbly]

Why not do a trial run using hot (boiling) water so as to suss out all/any potential issues as far as pressure/vacuum and sealing is concerned

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Florian]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

 

[Florian]

Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).

Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, you could fill the headspace with oxygen and no need to shake the bugger around.

I really like the idea of pressurizing the keg with oxygen to avoid sucking air in and oxygenising at the same time.

If this works and the numbers all add up (and you don't need to leave a ridiculous large headspace to get enough oxygen in the wort or the other way round are wasting too much oxygen as you need to pressurise a big head space), then this would be a pretty cool thing to do.

Probably need a decent O2 tank with a proper reg as opposed to the single use ones to get the correct pressure into the keg.

 

[pk.sax]

Yea, I was thinking a little further and you can just connect up the gas in (or even the beer in) to the oxy reg with the pressure set just above 1 bar and it would do the calculating for you...

 

[MaltyHops]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

Worst case is you might need to straighten out your kegs at some stage

Actually ... this probably can't happen unless you seal off the keg posts and PRV - I'm assuming they're designed to keep gases in (up to a threashold) but not really to keep external gases at higher pressure from going into keg.

Hadn't thought about this before but definitely a possibility - atmospheric pressure
is a very strong force. In an experiment by the ol' Prof Julius Sumner years ago,
a big steel drum was heated to push out most of the air inside, capped and when
cooled, atmospheric pressure crushed it like a little aluminium can.

 

[manticle]

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

You won't offend me at all. This kind of thing (pressure, etc)is not my strong point which is why I'm asking. I know that a cube will suck air in - just wasn't sure that if the keg was sealed and flushed with C02 whether that would still happen.

The idea mentioned above of attaching the disconnects to the posts (beer and gas) - would this prevent this or not?

Feel free to consider me a complete dunce in this regard - I am quite new to kegging and am interested in the viability of this method but am keen to learn from those who have tried it.

 

[roger mellie]

Following on from this post:


can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?

I'm thinking of retiring my cubes if kegs are a viable alternative.
I know there's a few threads around on this but most are by users who aren't around anymore. There's a few possible negatives mentioned but I'm really interested in hearing from people who have done it. Basically just interested in minimising equipment if it's superflous as well as how easy kegs are to clean, even when left grotty for a while.

PROS: easy to clean and sanitise
Less equipment
Easy to transfer keg to keg with reduced oxygen pickup (and as I currently ferment directly in NC cubes, I'd be hoping to ferment in the keg and transfer purely to remove the beer from the yeast)

CONS:??


Cheers

Manticle

I did exactly this recently. Primarily because I don't have any plastic cubes.

Sterilised the keg
Dumped from kettle (through hopback) into Corny - level was just underneath the gas in post
Lid on
Pressurised to ~ 1Bar (just to make sure lid was sealed)
Inverted keg for a few minutes - to make sure hot wort kills anything around the lid

Upped CO2 pressure to 3 BarG and pressurised keg

The next day the pressure in the keg was still positive - I just gave it a squirt of CO2 occasionally (at ~1.5 BarG) - I didn't want the Beer to be carbonated at this stage so was reluctant to leave it hooked up.

Worked a treat - I added to the fermenter through a sterile beer gun and pitched straight away.

I suggest a modified Liquid tube to avoid getting all the trub

Cons

Volume is low - ideally I want to ferment with ~22 L - so would need to use 2 cornys.

I also thought about chucking some hops in while it was still hot - I understand that No Chillers do this.

RM