No chill in corny keg

[manticle]

Following on from this post:

that's easy, transfer hot wort to keg, purge head space with Co2, attach a sanitary filter to the gas in post via quick disconnect to allow for the vacuum.

When ready to ferment, open lid and insert O2 wand into wort and pitch yeast. Or displace Co2 in headspace with air and shake and roll.
Ideally I'd like to use something like this for oxygen input so the vessel doesn't have to be opened at all, but think it might clog up pretty quickly when left in the vessel.
Either use a spunding valve to ferment under pressure or attach airlock or filter to gas in post.

Ideally you'd shorten the dip tube so you can leave the yeast behind when either transferring to another keg or serving directly from the vessel.

can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?

I'm thinking of retiring my cubes if kegs are a viable alternative.
I know there's a few threads around on this but most are by users who aren't around anymore. There's a few possible negatives mentioned but I'm really interested in hearing from people who have done it. Basically just interested in minimising equipment if it's superflous as well as how easy kegs are to clean, even when left grotty for a while.

PROS: easy to clean and sanitise
Less equipment
Easy to transfer keg to keg with reduced oxygen pickup (and as I currently ferment directly in NC cubes, I'd be hoping to ferment in the keg and transfer purely to remove the beer from the yeast)

CONS:??


Cheers

 

[indica86]

Hmm, I like the idea of not using plastic.

 

[Bribie G]

Cons would be getting probably only 17 or 18 L of beer out of the keg as opposed to the full 19 as I do currently due to thick yeast cake robbing your volume. That adds up to a lot of beer over the course of the year. However swings and roundabouts I suppose, less equipment and less cleaning up. Hmm, WillamsKeg system anyone :unsure:

Edit: and the rush of thick yeast slurry through the tap on the first pour could go straight into a Schott bottle and saved for a starter.

Get this stuff out of my mind, please................................ :angry2:

 

[breakbeer]

I'd really like to hear about the pro's, cons & procedures too

 

[manticle]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

 

[Bridges]

Slightly different but I plan long term to use my stainless fermenter as a cube, with silicone bung and a filter
"0.2 Micron Air Filter These 0.2 Micron Air Filters will filter out microbes and bacteria. They can be used in many different ways. They can be used with our wort aerator pumps (above) so you can aerate your wort, or can be used as an airlock in the top of your fermenter. They can also be used to filter air going back into a cask when dispensing real ale."

I can't do it yet as my ferm fridge is too small so it won't fit, soon I will be upgrading so plan to go something like, make wort put into fermenter leave in place on shed floor all sealed up (with filter) until cool enough to handle safely then put into ferm fridge until wort hits pitching temp pitch and off we go.

I'm interested in no chill in a keg too though and would like to hear more about this process as at this stage I'm still getting my head around how I want to do things.

 

[Stimsoni]

I like the idea even if it's just being used to cool the wort in a enclosed container. When trying to cool in the pot as i'm doing now i've alway got a thought in the back of my mind 'I wonder if anything is going to get in'

You could also attached a tube to the end of the liquid pickup (may need to shorten it) and attach an air stone to aerate in there before transferring to the FV.

 

[mckenry]

It's something I have been thinking about for a while, but dismissed in the end because of the amount of trub and the amount of head space required. I reckoned I'd only get about 13.5L of beer out if each corny. I'm thinking about trying to get 38L out if a 50L keg. That should be doable, but bloody heavy to move in and out of a ferment fridge if I don't get it set up right.

 

[MaltyHops]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

What about rigging up some kind of reverse airlock - connect the keg to the top of a bottle 2/3 filled with sanitiser solution, put an aquarium airstone at the bottom of the bottle with a hose connected to the airstone open to the outside. This way the air coming in can hopefully be turned into very fine bubbles and any particles in the air get filtered by the sanitiser on the way up.

 

[r055c0]

One of the questions I have is about air being sucked in and the necessity of the stetile filter if you've purged with co2 first.

Would the risk be air being sucked in as the wort cools and contracts? I'm guessing the corny keg is designed to hold pressure in, not keep it out so if the pressure in the keg is below the pressure outside it would suck air through the gas in post, the liquid out post and the pressure release valve. You might be able to avoid this by attaching the keg to your CO2 while it cools?

 

[manticle]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.

 

[pk.sax]

Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).

Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, you could fill the headspace with oxygen and no need to shake the bugger around.

 

[pk.sax]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.
R055c0 - I'm presuming the co2 in the headspace should be enough.

What you are missing is that the cooled wort will absorb an immense amount of gas. The headspace pressure needs to be such that the volume is accounted for.

Edit: work it out and make sure that it won't blow the prv by itself.

 

[wobbly]

Why not do a trial run using hot (boiling) water so as to suss out all/any potential issues as far as pressure/vacuum and sealing is concerned

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Florian]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

 

[Florian]

Tickleman, calculate shrinkage from cooling. That's the volume you need to replace. So, you have the headspace at time of filling x pressure applied = volume of headspace at cool x pressure applied (min atmospheric).

Just pressurise enough so that the shrinkage simply depressurises the headspace. Take into account the volumes of gas the cooled wort will absorb (the hot wort is essentially zero dissolved gas). In fact, you could fill the headspace with oxygen and no need to shake the bugger around.

I really like the idea of pressurizing the keg with oxygen to avoid sucking air in and oxygenising at the same time.

If this works and the numbers all add up (and you don't need to leave a ridiculous large headspace to get enough oxygen in the wort or the other way round are wasting too much oxygen as you need to pressurise a big head space), then this would be a pretty cool thing to do.

Probably need a decent O2 tank with a proper reg as opposed to the single use ones to get the correct pressure into the keg.

 

[pk.sax]

Yea, I was thinking a little further and you can just connect up the gas in (or even the beer in) to the oxy reg with the pressure set just above 1 bar and it would do the calculating for you...

 

[MaltyHops]

@malty hops - What I'm wondering though is whether anything is needed at all. Co2 then keg seals.
It's extremely likely I'm missing something obvious.

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

Worst case is you might need to straighten out your kegs at some stage

Actually ... this probably can't happen unless you seal off the keg posts and PRV - I'm assuming they're designed to keep gases in (up to a threashold) but not really to keep external gases at higher pressure from going into keg.

Hadn't thought about this before but definitely a possibility - atmospheric pressure
is a very strong force. In an experiment by the ol' Prof Julius Sumner years ago,
a big steel drum was heated to push out most of the air inside, capped and when
cooled, atmospheric pressure crushed it like a little aluminium can.

 

[manticle]

At the risk of offending you, are you aware that the volume of wort will shrink when it cools?
It's fine in the cube, as the walls will just get sucked in, but in the keg air will get sucked in via the outposts and PRV.
By attaching a cheap sanitary filter you make sure that the air being sucked in is at least sanitary.

You won't offend me at all. This kind of thing (pressure, etc)is not my strong point which is why I'm asking. I know that a cube will suck air in - just wasn't sure that if the keg was sealed and flushed with C02 whether that would still happen.

The idea mentioned above of attaching the disconnects to the posts (beer and gas) - would this prevent this or not?

Feel free to consider me a complete dunce in this regard - I am quite new to kegging and am interested in the viability of this method but am keen to learn from those who have tried it.

 

[roger mellie]

Following on from this post:


can anyone who does this outline their process and things to take into account? Anything not mentioned in the above post?

I'm thinking of retiring my cubes if kegs are a viable alternative.
I know there's a few threads around on this but most are by users who aren't around anymore. There's a few possible negatives mentioned but I'm really interested in hearing from people who have done it. Basically just interested in minimising equipment if it's superflous as well as how easy kegs are to clean, even when left grotty for a while.

PROS: easy to clean and sanitise
Less equipment
Easy to transfer keg to keg with reduced oxygen pickup (and as I currently ferment directly in NC cubes, I'd be hoping to ferment in the keg and transfer purely to remove the beer from the yeast)

CONS:??


Cheers

Manticle

I did exactly this recently. Primarily because I don't have any plastic cubes.

Sterilised the keg
Dumped from kettle (through hopback) into Corny - level was just underneath the gas in post
Lid on
Pressurised to ~ 1Bar (just to make sure lid was sealed)
Inverted keg for a few minutes - to make sure hot wort kills anything around the lid

Upped CO2 pressure to 3 BarG and pressurised keg

The next day the pressure in the keg was still positive - I just gave it a squirt of CO2 occasionally (at ~1.5 BarG) - I didn't want the Beer to be carbonated at this stage so was reluctant to leave it hooked up.

Worked a treat - I added to the fermenter through a sterile beer gun and pitched straight away.

I suggest a modified Liquid tube to avoid getting all the trub

Cons

Volume is low - ideally I want to ferment with ~22 L - so would need to use 2 cornys.

I also thought about chucking some hops in while it was still hot - I understand that No Chillers do this.

RM

 

[Florian]

You won't offend me at all. This kind of thing (pressure, etc)is not my strong point which is why I'm asking. I know that a cube will suck air in - just wasn't sure that if the keg was sealed and flushed with C02 whether that would still happen.

The idea mentioned above of attaching the disconnects to the posts (beer and gas) - would this prevent this or not?

Feel free to consider me a complete dunce in this regard - I am quite new to kegging and am interested in the viability of this method but am keen to learn from those who have tried it.

Not exactly sure what a dunce is so I won't call you one... I remember the time before I started kegging, it took me a while to get my head around this whole pressure thing as well.

If you just attach disconnects (and nothing else) to the post you will just freely suck air into your keg, as you have pretty much opened the posts by attaching the disconnects.

If you don't attach anything to the posts at all, you will still suck air in through either the posts or the PRV, whichever of the three springs in those is the weakest. If those springs were really strong you would most likely get dented keg walls, they would be sucked in like the walls of your plastic cube. But as suggested by others this is unlikely, so air will get sucked in instead.

If you now attach only one disconnect to the gas in post, you basically open that post up so air can get in freely to equalise the pressure in the keg with the air pressure outside of the keg. As you don't really want to suck your garage air into the keg, you can attach the sanitary filter via a piece of beer line, so at least the air that get's sucked in is 'clean'.

If you now wanted to store your wort for a longer period once it's cooled I would completely flush the headspace (containing Co2 and 'clean' air) with Co2 so that it only contains Co2.

EDIT: added quote

 

[manticle]

Cheers.

I meant disconnects attached to co2 cylinder and ploto gun. Most likely I'll just get meself one a them new fangled air filter things (or presumably two - one for each post?)

 

[manticle]

Manticle

I did exactly this recently. Primarily because I don't have any plastic cubes.

Sterilised the keg
Dumped from kettle (through hopback) into Corny - level was just underneath the gas in post
Lid on
Pressurised to ~ 1Bar (just to make sure lid was sealed)
Inverted keg for a few minutes - to make sure hot wort kills anything around the lid

Upped CO2 pressure to 3 BarG and pressurised keg

The next day the pressure in the keg was still positive - I just gave it a squirt of CO2 occasionally (at ~1.5 BarG) - I didn't want the Beer to be carbonated at this stage so was reluctant to leave it hooked up.

Worked a treat - I added to the fermenter through a sterile beer gun and pitched straight away.

I suggest a modified Liquid tube to avoid getting all the trub

Cons

Volume is low - ideally I want to ferment with ~22 L - so would need to use 2 cornys.

I also thought about chucking some hops in while it was still hot - I understand that No Chillers do this.

RM

Thanks for the response - so no trouble sucking air in? I don't mind the slightly reduced volume. Even thinking along the lines of what Bribie suggested - one shot with the pluto post fermentation to remove most of the yeast before transferring to another keg for dispensing.

This is the bit that is confusing me Florian. How does the air get sucked in if you have positive pressure in the headspace?

 

[surly]

Cheers.

I meant disconnects attached to co2 cylinder and ploto gun. Most likely I'll just get meself one a them new fangled air filter things (or presumably two - one for each post?)

Attached to CO2 and pluto SHOULD work.
If you attached your CO2 with pressure on (keep it at just above atmosphere), then the CO2 will force its way in when the pressure in the keg drops. You can ignore the liquid post then (or leave pluto attached).

If you were to attach the sanitary air filter, the theory is, there SHOULD be less resistance drawing the air through the filter into the keg than there would be in overcoming the spring loaded seal on the other post. Therefore, only clean air will be drawn in.


If you look at how the posts work, there is a centre piece with a rubber seal on it. This is held in the "sealed" position by a spring. If you increase pressure inside the keg, this centre piece is forced even more firmly against its seat and the seal gets stronger. However, this centre piece can easily be depressed (into the keg) via a finger or disconnect. You only have to overcome the power of the spring. So a vacuum inside the keg (caused by cooling wort) would easily suck air in against the spring.
You need to provide a path of less resistance, hence attaching the gas at just above atmosphere pressure, or the use of a sanitary filter.

Hope this makes sense?

 

[Florian]

Thanks for the response - so no trouble sucking air in? I don't mind the slightly reduced volume. Even thinking along the lines of what Bribie suggested - one shot with the pluto post fermentation to remove most of the yeast before transferring to another keg for dispensing.

This is the bit that is confusing me Florian. How does the air get sucked in if you have positive pressure in the headspace?

Ah, I think this is were the confusion might come from.

I was talking about just purging the head space with Co2, which is just like flushing the air out so to speak. Doesn't necessarily leave pressure in the keg.

You were talking about pressurising the keg, right? If you do that, like PF and RM suggested, then you won't need an air filter or whatever, assuming you put enough pressure in there to equalise the vacuum of the cooling wort.
This is probably the easiest method.

I guess the only concern with that could be that, if you put too much pressure on, that you're basically dissolving Co2 into your wort. Not sure how that could possibly affect fermentation, and I would definitely depressurise the keg while it's still fairly warm (before you pre chill wort to ferment temps) as this is when Co2 is dissolved the hardest and therefore leaves the wort the easiest.

That's why I liked PF's idea of pressurising with O2, as you're getting two birds with one stone if done right.

EDIT: added quote (again). Also, surly is on the money.

 

[surly]

Would there be an issue pressurising with O2? We ARE dealing with hot wort after all..

In theory, I think the easiest way would be connecting the CO2 up via a regulator at low pressure. You won't carbonate your wort, it is sanitary and there wouldn't be any concerns about oxygenation (maybe this is just MY concern..).
The drawback would be that you have dedicated that regulator to a low pressure task which might prevent you from serving your other beers..

 

[manticle]

Thankyou Surly - that explanation makes sense. Thanks too Florian.

Yes I was talking about pressurising the keg but like I say, my understanding of gas, pressure and displacement is not even rudimentary.

I would have concerns oxygenating hot wort.

 

[Florian]

Would there be an issue pressurising with O2? We ARE dealing with hot wort after all..

Do you mean in regards to hot side aeration or safety?

In theory, I think the easiest way would be connecting the CO2 up via a regulator at low pressure. You won't carbonate your wort, it is sanitary and there wouldn't be any concerns about oxygenation (maybe this is just MY concern..).
The drawback would be that you have dedicated that regulator to a low pressure task which might prevent you from serving your other beers..

Agree, that is probably the most feasible option, provided you can spare that Co2 bottle and reg.

I guess another positive about keg no chilling for the list is that you can easily force oxygenate your wort once it's cooled. Connect O2 tank to cooled corny at high pressure and shake, or leave connected until desired saturation level is reached.

 

[surly]

Hey Florian, my concern was for hot side aeration. Hadn't considered safety, though figure you would need a bit more than 100deg C for O2 to be particularly dangerous??

 

[manticle]

HSA would be my concern. I know it's not a massive issue on an HB scale and you really have to try hard to create an issue but oxygenating boiling hot wort would surely be pushing the limits.

Just before I go ahead and set myself up for this - no-one can see any way I can blow up myself or my kegs if attach the gas and ploto after filling and sealing the keg? I'd be having a crack at fermenting in the same keg as well - trying with the bleed nozzle raised for C02 release as when I ferment in cubes, I seem to get reduced krausen (presumably because the wort is under more pressure than in a fermenter with glad wrap). I'm hoping the gas bleed nozzle is enough. Can fit more kegs in my fridge than I can cubes.