No chill in corny keg

[mckenry]

It's something I have been thinking about for a while, but dismissed in the end because of the amount of trub and the amount of head space required. I reckoned I'd only get about 13.5L of beer out if each corny. I'm thinking about trying to get 38L out if a 50L keg. That should be doable, but bloody heavy to move in and out of a ferment fridge if I don't get it set up right.

Sorry manticle. My thoughts above werent really what you were getting at (after reading the rest of this thread) I thought after reading Florians post you quoted, that you were going to ferment in the corny as well, as you do with your cubes. Thats why I said what I said.

 

[manticle]

Actually you're right - I am considering fermenting in them as well. If you read the thread about fermenting under pressure you'll see Krausen is reduced so headspace is less of a concern. I often fill my cubes right up and get some to no krausen leakage. While I'm not exactly fermenting under pressure, I wonder if the slower release (cap on, slightly turned to loose) affects the krausen in a similar way or whether it's to do with the shape of the vessel or a bit of both.

The yeast/trub could presumably be dealt with with either shortened dip tube (but then I need kegs designated only for that purpose) or simply by removing via beer outpost. Yeast can then be reserved for later use or discarded. Presumably you could dispense from the same keg too but I think I would prefer to transfer at that point.

Probably not a viable option for beers that require big starters as I use identical wort for my starters and add the entire lot when active but for things like my dark mild and UK bitters it might be a goer. I tend to make those more often than dark strongs or doppelbocks.

 

[wobbly]

Mantical

I know this is going of topic but seeing you are contemplating fermenting in the same corny after "no chilling" have a read of this thread I previously posted on the Pressure Fermenting topic http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/spunding-valve-commericial-style-diy-333907/ and you will see that they eventually concluded that it wasn't necessary to modify (shorten) the dip tube

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[manticle]

Cheers for that wobbly. Cheers also for the earlier suggestion on a hot water run.

 

[MHB]

Just a couple of points that spring to mind
There are kegs other than 5 US Gallon Cornes, there are lots of the old Australian 23L (5 Imp Gal) kegs kicking around, here are a couple on eBay, should make for much better batch sizes.
PRV's cant leak gas in, well unless they are stuffed, they are basically a one way valve with a spring holding them down.
I to would be very concerned about O2 ingress, not just HSA but if you are no-chilling in the keg - plain straight old fashioned oxidisation - the beer wont be better for exposure to oxygen for any length of time.
Both poppets can let air in as vacuum forms, for air to travel in through the liquid the vacuum would have to be the same as the wet height of the dip-tube and the density of the wort according to P=ρgh (ρ being density, g gravity, h height). Just on my fingers about -6 to -7 kPa (about -1 psi for the luddites) so more than doable if the gas poppet was a bit sticky.
I think the perfect solution would be a CO2 and cask aspirator, it just lets in a vacuum relieving amount gas.

I have a friend who was doing this, brewing here in Newcastle, putting the wort into a 45L keg (the old Australian type with a hatch and poppets like a corny), pressurising with CO2 as the wort cooled, then fitting a HEPA filter to the gas post for the drive over the range to Tamworth,
The beer was never as good as that which was taken home in cubes, we put it down to oxidisation from air getting in and out from the altitude change, he has gone back to using cubes.

Mark

 

[manticle]

Thanks Mark.

I would be pitching as soon as the wort is cool. I don't tend to store wort in cubes for much more than one or two days and this would be no different. However one of the main attractions is reducing oxidation so hopefully it doesn't have the opposite effect.

If I block the gas post with the co2 disconnect and the beer with my black disconnect connected to pluto overnight, then pitch the next day would I hopefully be avoiding the issues your friend had?

I hope to give this a go next weekend if I can nut this out correctly

 

[MHB]

I strongly suspect that if you don't do something to relieve the vacuum it will suck air in, if you have everything else blocked then it will suck it in around the hatch O-Ring. Remember kegs are designed to hold pressure not vacuum.
mark

 

[mb-squared]

I read through all the comments on this post and couldn't help but ask why you don't just chill the wort before dumping it into the keg? Is there an advantage (that I'm clearly missing) to not chilling your wort?

 

[TheWiggman]

The yeast/trub could presumably be dealt with with either shortened dip tube (but then I need kegs designated only for that purpose)

If you have a spare dip tube around, why not just shorten it and fit it when needed? Only involves removing the liquid post then re-fitting.

 

[breakbeer]

I read through all the comments on this post and couldn't help but ask why you don't just chill the wort before dumping it into the keg? Is there an advantage (that I'm clearly missing) to not chilling your wort?

Not everyone has a chiller

 

[surly]

Thanks Mark.

I would be pitching as soon as the wort is cool. I don't tend to store wort in cubes for much more than one or two days and this would be no different. However one of the main attractions is reducing oxidation so hopefully it doesn't have the opposite effect.

If I block the gas post with the co2 disconnect and the beer with my black disconnect connected to pluto overnight, then pitch the next day would I hopefully be avoiding the issues your friend had?

I hope to give this a go next weekend if I can nut this out correctly

Just attaching the Pluto and gas post won't stop it drawing air, you will need to add SOME pressure.
Either continuously add a small amount, or add enough pressure initially that the keg will remain slightly higher than the atmosphere once wort has cooled.

mb, not sure what Manticles reasons are, but I don't chill as I hate the waste of water and don't want to clean more stuff.
Also, is very convenient to pitch when time allows. Makes for a shorter brew day.

 

[manticle]

Sorry I'm not being clear.

I would add some co2 first for sure. Then attach the gas and beer connects.

MB: There are a multitude of reasons for not chilling. Whether I no chill in cubes or no chill in a corny, those reasons remain the same.

The three main advantages for me are using far less water, not needing to set up extra equipment and being able to use the same wort for my starters when required.

It's been the subject of many a discussion so no real need to go into it here.

 

[manticle]

If you have a spare dip tube around, why not just shorten it and fit it when needed? Only involves removing the liquid post then re-fitting.

Because I often ferment more than one beer at once. I'm not sure there's any need to work with a shortened tube at all though.

 

[pk.sax]

Actually, after working all the rest of the muscles (besides the ones under the skull), a few thighs dawned on me:

1) HOT O2 in contact with hot wort, not great for the wort or the keg. I wonder how keg seals would cope with that.
Solutions:
1-1. Don't pressurise much above 1 bar. Lower the pressure, the better for the equipment.
1-2. Figure out the contraction rate of the liquid, let's say we are doing 18L in a 19L keg, that means 1L of headspace that is allowed to get rarified. At what temperature of wort is the contraction going to be enough to buckle the keg. Start the oxygen pressure at just above this temperature, basically the lower it is he better for the wort.
1-3. Replace all seals on the keg with better materials. I was thinking the silicone seals sold by home brew shops + silicone o-rings for the other seals too but I hear silicone seeps oxygen like a leaky whore. Might have to consider alternative materials - neoprene?!

2) risk of explosion or catching fire due to the hot oxygen problem.
Solutions:
2-1. Don't do this inside the house.
2-2. Use a nrv on the oxygen line.
2-3. Use sufficient length of line to give physical separation between the oxy cylinder and keg. In fact, I'd suggest dropping the nrv into a tub of water just to make sure the hot air doesn't destroy it and also to create a temperature gap between both sides of the oxygen circuit.

One thing that pops into mind straight away is that this would be an awesome method of chilling, oxygenating and fermenting for those that have the ability to drop the keg into a pool or something for a quick chill and subsequent ferment.
Thinking further, if a 50L keg were used, you could weld in or use bulkheads to drop in a coil into the keg and run cooling through the coil while oxygenating at the same time. Could then later use the same coil to control ferment temp. Heck, use an upside down 50L keg and attach a sediment bottle WW style and you basically have a conical-ish vessel with temp control, oxygenating easy and chilling all in one.

OK, I'll stop before the brain muscles hurt.

 

[roger mellie]

I strongly suspect that if you don't do something to relieve the vacuum it will suck air in, if you have everything else blocked then it will suck it in around the hatch O-Ring. Remember kegs are designed to hold pressure not vacuum.
mark

Mark

The only way that Air can be sucked in to the keg is if the difference in pressure between inside the keg and outside the keg is negative. Given that we are adding 3 Bar of CO2 to the headspace when the wort is hot and a squirt more occasionally - I don't see that anything will ingress through the seals/poppets as long as you keep the pressure inside the keg positive (greater than 0 barG).

RM

 

[surly]

Sorry I'm not being clear.

I would add some co2 first for sure. Then attach the gas and beer connects.

I DID think that's what you meant, but I felt the need to be sure

 

[manticle]

If there's no way I can blow myself sky high or cave in my kegs doing the following, I will try next weekend. i know enough about beer and my palate to know if it doesn't taste right but next to bugger all about gas and pressure so I want to be safe.

1. Run hot wort into sanitised keg.
2. Seal lid
3. Add small amount of CO2. Leave gas disconnect on
4. Put beer disconnect with ploto on
5. Possibly add more CO2 as it cools.
6. When cool, release pressure, remove lid, add yeast, shake keg. Reseal, unlock pressure valve for co2 release

If it works I will look at improving the process by getting an O2 cylinder for proper oxygenation and a spunding valve to actually ferment under pressure and possibly even retain some natural carbonation in the finished beer.

If it doesn't work, I might try the sterile filter and if that doesn't work, I'll stick to cubing.

 

[pk.sax]

Looks alright.

My only worry about using co2 from the start is that as it cools the wort will absorb it. That is going to be hard to displace. Your normal oxygenation - shaking won't be as effective. Allow for that, perhaps a bigger starter. Else just get a sanitary air filter.

 

[roger mellie]

Looks alright.

My only worry about using co2 from the start is that as it cools the wort will absorb it. That is going to be hard to displace. Your normal oxygenation - shaking won't be as effective. Allow for that, perhaps a bigger starter. Else just get a sanitary air filter.

I worried about this as well PF - when I did my one and only 'No Chill in a Corny' - dumped into a Williams Warn fermenter - No oxygenation - with S-04 - it was all over inside 2 days.

I assume from that that the volume of CO2 absorbed is minute - or that Dried Yeast doenst care if the wort is anaerobic.

RM

 

[hotmelt]

What about joining the liquid and gas disconnects to a JG tee,then from the tee to a one way valve then to co2.The pressure keeps the valve closed and as it cools the co2 is drawn in

 

[Florian]

Manticle, on your latest list I would add a purging step between point 2 and 3 to remove all air from the corny, same as you would with a cube to minimise infection risk.

seal corny, attach co2 at anywhere between 1 and 3 bar or so, detach disconnect from gas post, pull relieve valve, and repeat 3 or 4 times.
while pitching yeast you obviously then have to replace the co2 in the head space with air or oxygen to get at least some oxygen in your wort when shaking the keg.

 

[manticle]

Cool.

I think I have enough info to at least give this a go.

If people are interested I will report back on my experience. I think there is merit in the idea so if we can collectively nut out both potential and actual issues and solutions, I reckon more people might give this a go, especially those who don't mind smaller batches.

BTW - I don't pretend to have invented the idea - just unsure why more people don't do it. $40 stainless fermenters.

 

[mb-squared]

The three main advantages for me are using far less water, not needing to set up extra equipment and being able to use the same wort for my starters when required.

It's been the subject of many a discussion so no real need to go into it here.

Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters.

Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:

The DMS produced during the hot wort stand will stay in solution even if the hot wort tank is vented. For every extra hour of hot wort stand, a DMS increase of approximately 30% will result (original source).

I'm not saying that is gospel, it is just what I've been taught. I'd be most interested to hear why you aren't concerned about this.

 

[pk.sax]

I worried about this as well PF - when I did my one and only 'No Chill in a Corny' - dumped into a Williams Warn fermenter - No oxygenation - with S-04 - it was all over inside 2 days.

I assume from that that the volume of CO2 absorbed is minute - or that Dried Yeast doenst care if the wort is anaerobic.

RM

OK, it might be that the dry yeast actually has more yeast in it than liquid especially handled well. Might explain that. But I have been contemplating my first brew in a while but don't have fridges on hand. I'll get a belle saison done and try all this as I have the co2 etc all at hand anyway. Will report back once I get this started.

Cool.

I think I have enough info to at least give this a go.

If people are interested I will report back on my experience. I think there is merit in the idea so if we can collectively nut out both potential and actual issues and solutions, I reckon more people might give this a go, especially those who don't mind smaller batches.

BTW - I don't pretend to have invented the idea - just unsure why more people don't do it. $40 stainless fermenters.

Yep, would love to hear. Some yeast health issues with variations would be great to nut out too! Btw, $40?!?! Where!!!

 

[manticle]

Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters.

Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:



The DMS produced during the hot wort stand will stay in solution even if the hot wort tank is vented. For every extra hour of hot wort stand, a DMS increase of approximately 30% will result (original source).[/size]
I'm not saying that is gospel, it is just what I've been taught. I'd be most interested to hear why you aren't concerned about this.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.
Many homebrewers use this alternative.

DMS has not been an issue in the 4 odd years I've been employing it. Possibly a combination between modern modified 2 row barley, 90 minute standard boil and wort standing for 40 odd minutes before being cubed.
Start here for an explanation of the method:http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/23742-ahb-wiki-the-no-chiller-method-using-a-cube/

As for identical wort for my starters - I run off the last bit from the kettle, let the trub settle out then reboil and cool. My starter is then made using this wort - no chilled wort when properly packed can sit without yeast for a long time so the yeast is pitched when it's ready.
Happy to discuss further either by pm or in the linked thread but it works.
There are things that need thinking about or adjusting but it works.
Pretty much a tried and tested method by many brewers and many state and national comps have been won with no chilled beers.

 

[manticle]

Pf - I've not paid more than 50 for any of my kegs but have picked up a few for 40 second hand.

 

[Bridges]

Please soldier on and do this Manticle. I'm really keen to hear how it goes.

 

[MHB]

Hi manticle, I don't want to de-rail what looks like a very productive exchange but this "no chill" method just caught me by surprise. I understand your first two advantages, but it seems to me you could use chilled wort just as easily as no-chilled wort for subsequent starters.

Since I am such a dolt and not aware of the "many a discussion" on the topic, can you point me in the right direction? I am most interested in how you deal with DMS in your no-chill beer because everything I've read says to get that boiling wort chilled as fast as possible. For example, this is what I've been taught:

The DMS produced during the hot wort stand will stay in solution even if the hot wort tank is vented. For every extra hour of hot wort stand, a DMS increase of approximately 30% will result (original source).

I'm not saying that is gospel, it is just what I've been taught. I'd be most interested to hear why you aren't concerned about this.

mb-squared I'm not manticle - he is much more patient than me (probably types a lot faster to) and might spend a couple of hours answering your question, and its a very reasonable question, just extremely provocative.
Please don't take offence, I know its no longer fashionable to tell new members to go and do a search, but in this case, considering the size of the can of worms you are opening some one might be forgiven, up the top right in the search area put in chill v nochill - that got me 89 results as topics or threads, without trying variations on the spelling of nochill, no-chill, no chill and adding ing's on the end.

1/ every fresh wort pack sold is made this way, and lots of them get sold
2/ lots of people here do it without problems (including me)
3/ just because some American thinks it doesn't mean its right or applies everywhere
4/ have a look in the wiki topics (4th one down) Ahb Wiki: The No-chiller Method / Using A Cube
5/ plan on having a very late night
Mark

 

[Rambo]

Put beer disconnect with ploto

Why are you attaching the Pluto at this stage Manticle? Could this not just be added after fermentation to remove the trub?

 

[manticle]

Seems to be a consensus that the gas and beer posts could suck air in as the wort cools. Basically just blocking the avenue.