No chill in corny keg

[manticle]

My golden strong is tasting great.
I've been venting the pressure generated by the late sugar additions - no spurts or leaks.

Wouldn't it be reasonably simple to balance the pressure in the two kegs before transfer? I'm hoping it is because everything else in this method is so far ridiculously simple.

 

[manticle]

I'll be using ross/zwickel transfer method which I'll link when not on phone. What method did you use PF?

 

[Florian]

Zwickel method: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/16907-keg-transfer-made-easy/

That reminds me to better check on mine. Last time I checked it had stalled at 1.030 for a week which I never had before, decided to throw some champagne yeast at it that I still had flying around. Problem was that I had to release pressure from the keg to open and get the yeast in. Pressure relief valve was blocked within seconds, gas out was then also blocked with hop crap and beer out already had been from previous attempts. There was a tiny bit of pressure still releasing from the PRV, so I left that unattended for a few hours, then came back and tried to force the lid open by pushing on it.
Needless to say it took me about 10 minutes of absolute violence, and once I could push the lid in I was greeted with an massive beer explosion, I was absolutely covered from head to toe in beer and, much worse, sticky hop matter, and so was my wife's car and everything else that was in the garage. Lucky it was raining outside so i just reversed the car out and left in the rain overnight, still had to work on it with the hose the next day though and clean all my fridges, tools and what not. At least my car was far enough away so that it only got a few splatters.

In hind side I wish i had set up a video camera, would be awesome footage. I think I took some photos afterwards but I better refrain myself from posting them here.

To be honest, I'm sure it's all really easy to ferment in cornies, but I'm done with it and am looking at other stainless fermenting vessels. There are a few other things that bug me with cornies too.

I will however still be using them as no chill vessels and then transfer to a stainless fermenting vessel. The plan is then to transfer under pressure back to keg, this can also be done just before fermentation is finished to utilise that last bit of Co2 production for natural carbonation. I have done this many times in the past and know it works for me.

 

[manticle]

I've been adding regular sugar syrup additions with no blockage or spillage but the bulk of fermentation allowed release of early co2 release.

 

[pk.sax]

Well, basically I put gas pressure on the fermenting keg and then disconnected it, put the same pressure on the serving keg and disconnected it. Joined the two beer out posts and released a little pressure from the serving keg to start the transfer. Zwickel method ftw.

Trouble began when I realised that the serving keg was barely 70% full when the transfer completely stopped. Issues? Can't see in either keg so hard to confirm anything really. Wanted to see in the now serving keg so cracked the lid to have a peek and beer foam explosion. ****.

Well, basically, it works well in theory but doesn't leave much margin for error or manual intervention. That's what annoys me. It's like an embraer 190, insanely electronic and most issues are frickin indication or sensors or instruments (basically electrical) but the moment you mess with the mechanics it is a world of pain. Gimme back my boeing or even my dash 8.

I think I'd spilt at least 3-4 pints of beer in wort showers while releasing pressure during fermentation.

 

[MastersBrewery]

first flush and pressurise serving keg, then bring ferm keg up to the same pressure leaving the gas attached, then conect beer out posts, now attach spunding to serving keg and adjust till gas starts releasing ...simples

 

[manticle]

Well update - Belgian Golden strong which got an active starter of 1388 and was very full had no leakage during fermentation. Ferment was very healthy, hit FG in expected time, tastes like I'd expect a still conditioning Golden strong to taste.

Made a mild on saturday, no chilled into keg, again fairly full, added a fresh smack pack of 1469 and now there's bubbles and yeast crawling out the PR valve (which is open to allow CO2 release).

Not any different from when I ferment in very full cubes with monster yeasts but I thought I must have discovered something with reduced krausen/greater pressure when the golden strong just stayed quiet. Alas, that's not the case (or at least it's not so much the case that the ferment will be totally mess free). I'll perservere with the kegs for several reasons (space is a big one, use of stainless is another) but in the interestes of honesty, I can't pretend it's a perfect world.

 

[Beerisyummy]

Interesting read Manticle. Good on you for having a crack and deciding to stick with it awhile longer.

I'm still fermenting in a 50L keg, alongside the odd 30L drum, and really like the keg for many reasons. I'm not really no chilling in the keg, but I do throw it in the fridge to get the temps down where I want them and can't say I've had any problems so far.
The keg fermenter is simple to clean and sanitise and will allow easily controlled carbonation with the use of a spunding valve. Just be aware that different yeasts will react differently to any head pressure applied during the ferment. That's my findings, so far anyway.

I'll be interested to see how you get on over a few more brews. :beerbang:

PS. I loved the experiment with the crushed bottles. From memory the CO2 is simply reduced in volume more than air when you cool it down. I don't think it's being absorbed by the wort much at all. Wort shrinks by about 4% right? Well the density of air increases by approx 7% from 20c to 0c. CO2 is something like 20% for the same drop as air so you can see what's happening there.
(I'd love to see how quickly you could chill a corny by wrapping it in a wet towel and blowing a fan on it. Might have to try that one myself.)

 

[Florian]

OK, I had another crack at the fermenting side.

Brewed a batch of mild and no chilled directly in the Braumeister (sealed it off with foil and lid about a minute before end of boil).
One good thing that comes out of this is that there is absolutely no hot or cold break that got transferred to the corny, as the dead space is quite large without tilting the vessel.

Transferred to the corny using one of those plastic aerator thingis directly onto a pack of rehydrated Windsor, which was already in the corny.






Fermented under pressure at about 150 kPa at 18C.
Just connected the keg to the tap and dumped some of that yeast, but yet to chill the beer.

Going great so far, I think the lack of dry hops and break has greatly helped in not blocking the dip tube.

I plan to serve this beer from the same keg it was fermented in.

If this works well then it'll save a bit of work, as I only have two vessels to clean, the BM and the keg. No cleaning of no chill cube and fermenter.

 

[manticle]

I've also got a mild in that I'm aiming to dispense from the same vessel. Looking good so far - should be ready by the weekend.

However struggling to get the golden strong to clear and I'm not sure if I may have to transfer to a bright tank of sorts. No finings - I only ever use cold and time so I'll wait a bit longer. Tastes good but would be better clear. I've got a test glass in the same fridge and it appears as if it's still yeast dropping out which is what my palate also tells me.

 

[dent]

I've done some fermenting in corny kegs a few times.

What I did was use two kegs. One with the wort, the other empty but clean and sanitised. I made a short connector hose with a gas disconnect on one end and a beer disconnect on the other.
On the empty keg I modified the PRV with a much softer spring so the release pressure was about 14 psi.

So the keg with wort would be the fermenter with the hose connected onto the gas disconnect. The other empty keg would be on the beer end.

What would happen, is as the 1st keg fermented away, the krausen would be released out the gas disconnect, through the tube and into the 2nd keg. This reduces the amount of yeast collected at the bottom of the 1st keg so it can be used immediately without racking. The pressure would be sufficient to get the beer mostly carbonated too. The 2nd keg would end up with a litre or two of yeasty krausen in there - perfect to tip another cube of wort onto for the next batch! Swap the lids (PRVs) over and the cycle continues.

 

[Not For Horses]

That is exceedingly clever dent. I'm impressed.

 

[Bribie G]

Glad this thread has been revived. My next brew, when I get back from Grafton next week, is going to be a Dortmunder tryout for the competition season.

I intend to produce around a 14L batch and no chill in a nitromix-flushed cornie, then transfer with splashing to a second cornie for fermentation. The second cornie will be fitted with a shortened dip tube to sit above the level of the eventual yeast cake.

Brew will be fermented then lagered in the same cornie then bottled using a simple bronco gun and put aside for comps. I can lager down to -1 and don't usually go weeks, about ten days seems to always do the trick.

Two advantages, minimal contact with oxygen hot side and use of SS vessels. Also for fermenting and lagering I can keep 3 cornies in my Kegmate style fermenting fridge.

Problem (ok it's a third world problem) with doing full size batches for comp brewing is the expense, hard to find enough fermenting real estate and you can end up with heaps and heaps of beer in styles that you don't necessarily prefer to drink.

edit; Mr perfect made a typo

 

[Bribie G]

I should arise from my arschloch and see for myself, but does the beer out post stay sealed with no dip tube in place? No real need to fit a pickup till bottling and just one more place for krausen ring to form.

 

[Florian]

No, it doesn't stay sealed.

You could replace with a gas dip tube though to possibly overcome the Krausen issue, but personally I wouldn't bother.

 

[Bribie G]

Yup just wipe her off, no hassle.

 

[Rambo]

Also got a saison fermenting away in a corny which I also no chilled in. Gave it a thorough shake before I pitched rehydrated yeast last night, then attached a gas disconnect (threaded kind) with a silicon tube going into a bottle of Starsan. Was bubbling away before I went to bed, and the krausen was coming up the tube when I checked it this morning... So I think I got enough oxygen in there.

I also no chilled an APA in a corny a few weeks, will be fermenting that one soon so will be seeing how the corny stacks up as a no chill vessel longer term.

Going to have to try dents method soon though too.

 

[Bribie G]

I like the idea of the gas disconnect with a blow off tube into a jar. I'll grab a cheapy threaded one from the LHBS and attach some gas line. Doing lagers so hopefully no frothing.

 

[Rambo]

I like the idea of the gas disconnect with a blow off tube into a jar. I'll grab a cheapy threaded one from the LHBS and attach some gas line. Doing lagers so hopefully no frothing.

The threaded one I'm using (without JG fitting) gets a pretty good seal on a standard silicon tube, which should be easy to clean once it gets full of krausen.

 

[pk.sax]

If you were to decide to pressure ferment a saison at all, my pressure ferment went to 1.008. It never stalled AFAIK.