No chill in corny keg

[Florian]

That sort of seems like a sensible explanation, even though I admit that I don't understand it 100%. But it sounds like there would be a limit to solubility, so not a case of the more you gibe etc.?

As for telling when ferment is finished, I just attach a gas disconnect to the gas in post and hold a longish plastic container (just use a bucket or whatever you have on hand) right in front of it to catch the spray, let it settle and transfer to hydrometer tube.

Mine's still at 1.032 after 12 days, but it started at 1.082 so I give it a bit more time.

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure if I will pursue the cornie fermenting thing or not, but definitely will be no chilling in kegs from now on. If I acquire a ss fermenter I might just no chill in that if doing a single batch, but will no chill in cornies if wanting to store the wort for longer because I'm brewing multiple batches on a weekend, which will be the norm from now on.

 

[pk.sax]

Yeah, I've never been fully sold on the no-chill for hoppy beers though. For the rate of effort and changing process involved I tend to only do it for the wheat beers and like. The thing I hated about cubes was storage space and the stink they build from long disuse. Corny, no wukkin furries. Nappi-San + kettle water + lid on and shake shake sit and release and wash and starsan, job done every time on the mankiest keg unless there's congealed syrup (some of my first gumtree kegs had that issue). Cubes, well, if I can't see the spot how do I know it's got it + plastic harbouring bacteria...

 

[manticle]

Well a follow up on the gas thing. Didn't drop from 50 at any point since Saturday night.

Pulled the release valve tonight then shook the crap out of the keg to oxygenate as I would normally do with a cube. I plan on getting an O2 tank but shaking will have to do for now. Pulled the release valve again and would presume if any significant CO2 had gone into solution, that some would come out (and wort with it - likely in my face).

Nothing. Just like a cube only skinny and stainless. Added in my active starter, turned the release valve so it's pulled out - will see how it goes. Too much leakage and I'll sort a blow-off tube but I'm hoping I won't have to.

 

[Florian]

The thing is though that there wouldn't be much oxygen in the keg to oxygenate your wort, as you had flushed the head space with Co2 and also applied Co2 at pressure (that's what you did, right?). In that case you can shake it around as much as you like, but all you do is shaking the Co2 around.

Dependant on the yeast you're using and your desired outcome that could be good or bad. If you're concerned you could always open the lid and 'blow' some air in there and then repeat the shaking.

 

[Florian]

Also, instead of opening the release valve you could just attach a gas disconnect to the gas in post. That way, if your yeast rises too much, it just drips down the side of the keg, rather than all over the top. You could go all fancy and attach a tube to the disconnect and put it in a bucket with clean water, that way you're basically top cropping and have the yeast contained under water.

I know that's not what you want to do right now but it might give others some ideas.

I've completely nutted out my perfect process today, will post pics once I have all the gear together, which should be in about two weeks.

 

[manticle]

The thing is though that there wouldn't be much oxygen in the keg to oxygenate your wort, as you had flushed the head space with Co2 and also applied Co2 at pressure (that's what you did, right?). In that case you can shake it around as much as you like, but all you do is shaking the Co2 around.Dependant on the yeast you're using and your desired outcome that could be good or bad. If you're concerned you could always open the lid and 'blow' some air in there and then repeat the shaking.

released the co2 first, shook, removed lid, added yeast, returned lid, shook again. As I do with my cubes- I will be shaking intermittently till visible fermentation begins.
Not ideal but will have to do till I get O2 tank.

 

[pk.sax]

I like the top cropping idea. I've basically been releasing the pressure twice daily until the krausen starts wanting to come out. Then I stop - figuring I've dropped the pressure enough to let the subdued krausen rise to the top. Not like there was too much headspace anyway.

Btw, I cheated with the aeration. Wort was a bit over gravity so I topped with cold water in a spray from the hose. That should've introduced some oxygen. Temperature didn't drop much and I lidded and closed and applied co2 pressure. And pitched within 24 hours, with a starter. Not ideal but didn't pick up any infection, smell from the prv is very clean.

I mean, if pitching a starter large enough, is there really any need at all to oxygenate? Won't pitching to carbonated wort basically force the yeast to not grow and go anaerobic straight away?

 

[djar007]

If only corny kegs had conical bottoms.http://www.blichmannengineering.com/new-innovations-coming-soon

 

[manticle]

I know I'm tempting fate but there is a distinct krausen on the beer but nothing coming through the pressure valve as yet. I've just lifted it and turned it so it can't close. Maybe a litre or so headspace in the keg. No leakage so far.

If it stays like this, it's a very simple process.

 

[pk.sax]

Well, what's the chances of a speck of dust floating in through that bottleneck with a legion of screaming bugs on it's back!

You be fine

 

[manticle]

I could put a piece of glad wrap over it but I'm pretty confident in my mini-open fermentation, at least while it's active.

 

[manticle]

Got me paranoid so I put the release valve back in and just partially unscrewed it so it replicates what I do with my cubes. CO2 release with no dust able to fall in.

 

[pk.sax]

Bahaha. Really got you that dinnit.

I meant, it snakes down that hole with the spring and all that, hardly an infection risk...

I've put the belt on the fermenter today, the pressure was still building up but the temp was dropping. I'd be stoked if I can stop it from stalling this time.

 

[manticle]

Main thing is that krausen leakage seems so far to be non-existent.

Yes you did get me. *******.

 

[Florian]

I guess that's to do with the fact that you had the keg unpressurised from the beginning. Once you close it off and build up pressure it get's messy when you suddenly release the pressure.

Think coke bottle, take it out of the fridge, let it warm and then quickly open the lid = mess, take out of fridge, open lid, then let it warm + no mess, just because the Co2 is released as soon as it's coming out of solution, versus being ready to come out of solution (because coke warm), but pressure released (= lid opened) only once all Co2 is ready to come out.

 

[manticle]

I can imagine it would be totally messy but why would you close it off for fermentation? Either controlled (spunding) or just give the CO2 somewhere to go. It's no different to any other FV in that regard.

Or does the spunding hold until it's too much then release? In which case I'll stick with the slightly loose PRV.

 

[Florian]

With closing off I meant spunding, which is basically closing until a certain pressure is reached.

And yes, with spunding pressure builds up until it reaches or just overshoots a set threshold, then releases. But those commonly available spunding valves are unfortunately far from a precision instrument, it's a bit hit and miss and heaps of trial and error.

I'd love for someone to develop a digital one, keep pressure at exact 184 kPa or the like. I'm sure they exist, but would be unaffordable for the regular home brewer I'm sure.

 

[manticle]

If simply opening the PRV is enough, couldn't you do that and just attach the spunding valve for when the craziness has wound down (to achieve the natural carbonation)?

Or will the change in pressure release be enough to alter the beer significantly?

 

[Florian]

Yes, could do that, would work well. Used to do something similar with mostly wheat beers:

once gravity was somewhere 1.025ish I used to transfer from primary to keg and attach spunding valve. With some fancy calculations that would probably go totally over my head you could even calculate at what exact gravity you'd need to transfer to achieve x amount of carbonation.

one of the reasons I kept the pressure on this time though was to find out a bit about this whole pressure ferment and esthers thing.

 

[pk.sax]

Transferred the saison today. Few things.

Pressure seems to have made the saison go turbo in 2 weeks. Less than 2 weeks actually. Taste is dry, cannot detect any sweetness but the depth is there.

Most friggin annoying transfer ever. Wrt yeast, i.e. Unless you have the pressures etc set up perfectly for a fully closed transfer it's gonna be messy. I think on balance it is cheaper to spend a little gas and carbonate uncarbed beer than loose beer in wort showers and foam escaping the keg.

I hate not being able to see the level of beer in the vessels. I can feel the cold line descending and ascending but it is difficult to see when you got the yeast. I didn't get all the yeast out in the first hit before starting the transfer, the yeast was soft and fluffy.

Need to remember to take the gas off the keg transferring to and pressurise the fermenting keg before connecting them up or the gas shoots through the yeast and makes it all rise....

Don't think it was worth the bother on balance, I'm happy enough to wait longer for a ferment to finish at lower temps than deal with the mess.

Cleaning the keg post ferment however was a breeze compared to the carboy.