No Chill Hop Utilization

[Paul H]

Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.

That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

 

[buttersd70]

Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.

That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

as far as flavour, I've noticed no difference. Aroma is somewhat subdued, though.
As far as bitterness.....well, theres a debate on that one. objectively speaking;

on the blue team.....there are those that think that adjustment needs to be made to hop additions to compensate for an increase in bitterness due to the extended time at high temperature.

on the red team.....there are those that think that the bitterness levels need no adjustment, and that any increase in bitterness (comparative to rapid chilling) is minimal. (assuming that hop material doesn't make it into the cube, that is).

personally - I'm on the red team. I was a convert to no chill, so had the opportunity to try my recipes done both ways. I also am not a particular fan of highly bittered beers, so was hesitant about NC, because I didn't want it to increase my bitterness levels. But I don't believe it has. Others may have differing opinions; thats fine and well. But my opinion is, make no changes in relation to flavour and bittering additions....aroma is another story. (but nothing that a dry hop cant fix)

 

[flattop]

Is it possible the bittering and aroma are affected by seasonal differences in hop crops as well?

 

[Effect]

When I have no chilled with hops in the cube - the bitterness has been well out of whack. I wouldn't recommend it at all. If you are after aroma I would rather dry hop OR put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.

I would prefer to only no chill when doing only a 60 min hop addition - that is just my preference and as butters said, it really is a red vs blue battle.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Have a read of this, for taking it to the extreme:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=22964

I'm fermenting a brew along these lines now. I would *not* recommend against it.

For the record: purple...

 

[mje1980]

Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.

That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

Red team fo life

 

[Bribie G]

I no chill and have taken to dry hopping for aroma only with the usual suspects like EKG, styrians etc. Today I late hopped a brew using my big glass teapot and a litre of boiling water, five minutes until the hops settled then added the tea to fermenter. I guess that would be more or less equivalent to hops at flameout except that whatever is extracted from the hops during that 5 mins did not end up getting 'cooked' further in a cube.
The reason I did this is cos it's an American for a comp (telegraphing my punches here PaulH ) and I really don't know if true dry hopping as such is common with the Yanks so I've modified it a bit to be on the safe side

However other times I have just chucked the pellets into the fermenter.

 

[matti]

I am on the Red team for no adjusting the amount of making ordinary beer no chilling

But I believe by adding the aroma hops a tad later then 20 minutes when no chilling.

So does that make me purple? :lol:

 

[browndog]

OK Paul,
At the risk of giving away all my secrets, here is the down and dirty. If your late/flameout additions are reasonably low alpha you will have no problems, however if you are using a high alpha you will get significant extra bittering. A case point is a bloody loverly APA I brewed with cascade/amerillo and a bit of centennial late in the boil. It turned out fantastic. I brewed exactly the same beer, but buggered up and added columbus in place of the amerillo and I can tell you the difference in bitterness was profound. If you are interested, what I do is wait 10 min or so after flame out, add my flame out additions, whirlpool it straight away, then drain into the fermenter via a hop sock to stop any hop or break material entering the fermenter, then it's overnight to cool then straight into the fermenting fridge and a couple of hrs later, in with the yeast.

cheers

Browndog

 

[mje1980]

OK Paul,
At the risk of giving away all my secrets, here is the down and dirty. If your late/flameout additions are reasonably low alpha you will have no problems, however if you are using a high alpha you will get significant extra bittering. A case point is a bloody loverly APA I brewed with cascade/amerillo and a bit of centennial late in the boil. It turned out fantastic. I brewed exactly the same beer, but buggered up and added columbus in place of the amerillo and I can tell you the difference in bitterness was profound. If you are interested, what I do is wait 10 min or so after flame out, add my flame out additions, whirlpool it straight away, then drain into the fermenter via a hop sock to stop any hop or break material entering the fermenter, then it's overnight to cool then straight into the fermenting fridge and a couple of hrs later, in with the yeast.

cheers

Browndog

You could say the same thing for a 60 min addition though. If you bitter to 50 IBU with pride of ringwood, then do an identical batch with 50 IBU with tattnanger or hallerau, you would think the tett/hal batch would have a smoother bitterness.

Everytime i used target bittering hops for a 60 min addition when i had them, the bitterness was always harsh. THough pacific gem, which was 14.7%, compared to 10 for the target, always had a smooth bitterness. So the difference is hop variety, not the process in which they're used.

Just thinking?

P.S im not trying to spill any blue blood, or argue, different things work for different people.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm on the blue team and think it as Browndog suggests - the difference in bittering (if there is one) is from the late additions only. So if your late addition is 15g of 3.3% saaz, thats going to amount to bugger all - if on the other hand its 60g of 14% Columbus, you might want to consider taking into account the bitterness it will add.

I rarely add hops after 30min if I am no-chilling - preferring to combine a Cube Hop addition with an Ultra Late Hop, where I use a french press coffee strainer to do pretty much what Bribie G described - steep the hops in boiling water for a minute or two and add the tea directly to the fermenter. I calculate cube addition hops as though they had been added to the boil at 15-20mins.

If I do use late hops for a No-Chill beer, I calculate the bitterness of the late addition hops as though they had been added around 10 minutes before they actually were. A 5min addition - calculated as a 15min addition, a whirlpool addition calculated as though it were a 10 addition. Its not exact by any means, but it gets me pretty close I think.

So blue for me - but only if the occasion calls for it.

TB

 

[mckenry]

OK, so I've read four thousand pages on No chill hopping V late kettle and does it result in more bitterness or less aroma or both or neither? And now I have a question. I'm sure this has probably been posed and answered. Apologies if it has, but I cant read any more search pages tonight!
What about leaving out the traditional chilling - using a cube and crash chilling that? Can this then avoid the longer times that hops (either late kettle, flameout, or cube) are exposed to high temps and therefore avoid the extra bitterness / lack of aroma? Is there a problem with this?
Even if you wish to point me in the right direction, rather than answer, thats cool too.

 

[dpadden]

The main danger from what I have read is that there is not enough time for the hot wort to kill all of the nasties and sterilise the inside of the cube.

I think you have a good point though and maybe leaving in the cube for the correct amount of time to sterilise (say 10 minutes for arguments sake) and then crash chill in the pool, bath tub, ice in sink, etc.

 

[mckenry]

The main danger from what I have read is that there is not enough time for the hot wort to kill all of the nasties and sterilise the inside of the cube.

I think you have a good point though and maybe leaving in the cube for the correct amount of time to sterilise (say 10 minutes for arguments sake) and then crash chill in the pool, bath tub, ice in sink, etc.

Yep, I did some more reading and came across a similar thread. Still, surely the nasties that you dont kill off with extended hot time would still be there using the traditional copper chiller during the chilling time? That's the main reason I like the idea of No chilling in a cube.

 

[Daniel.lear]

I guess im in the blue team then

I almost exclusively cube hop and always calculate the addition as a 20 min addition. (right or wrong)

Im not afraid of a bit of bitterness, but i did notice an increase in percieved bitterness levels with no-chill with 'traditional' hopping regeims. Hence after reading many posts in this forum i went with a 20 min calculation for all brews that have any hop material that makes it into the cube.

Along with butters and many others, I find that with this method, (with my setup, recipies and equipment) Aroma is subdued a little. So to compensate i will dry hop in the fermenter/seccondary/keg, or just like i did way back with kits, bung them into the coffee plunger for couple of min and add while racking.

Leary

 

[Effect]

I would rather dry hop OR put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.

I think that is the way to go instead of dry hopping.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

OK, so I've read four thousand pages on No chill hopping V late kettle and does it result in more bitterness or less aroma or both or neither? And now I have a question. I'm sure this has probably been posed and answered. Apologies if it has, but I cant read any more search pages tonight!
What about leaving out the traditional chilling - using a cube and crash chilling that? Can this then avoid the longer times that hops (either late kettle, flameout, or cube) are exposed to high temps and therefore avoid the extra bitterness / lack of aroma? Is there a problem with this?
Even if you wish to point me in the right direction, rather than answer, thats cool too.

Then - its not no-chilling. So none of the issues apply.

Its just a not particularly effective way of rapid chilling - you get to more closely emulate the properties of a rapid chilled beer, BUT - you take risks if you try to still reap some of the benefits of a No-Chilled beer.

Chuck it in a pool or a dam - that will chill it down, but I would be pitching my yeast as soon as it was cool enough to do so, rather than trying to store it for any length of time.

Don't stick it in a fridge, that wont cool it down rapidly enough for it to be considered rapidly chilled or to do you any good at all, it'll just work the crap out of your fridge & still take hours to cool down.


Oh - and while hop matter getting into the cube might make the increase in bitterness from a late addition more severe, the hops do not have to get into the cube for it to still happen. The alpha acids are dissolved out of the hop matter fairly quickly - and over a period of time they isomerise. Even if no green bits whatsoever make it into your cube, the alpha acids are in the liquid.

Once again, this refuses to be simple - it will be different for people who use pellets vs those who use flowers. In flowers, the acids are trapped "inside" the cone, they don't all come out in one shot, the physical agitation of the boil helps shake em, out so to speak. In pellets - they aren't trapped and as soon as the pellets break down, the acids are there on the surface ready to go. So if you dump in 20g of flowers late in the boil - you might get the aroma, but some of the acids will still be completely locked up - that wont be nearly as true with pellets. Perhaps one more reason why people have had different experiences??

 

[mckenry]

Then - its not no-chilling. So none of the issues apply.

Its just a not particularly effective way of rapid chilling - you get to more closely emulate the properties of a rapid chilled beer, BUT - you take risks if you try to still reap some of the benefits of a No-Chilled beer.

Chuck it in a pool or a dam - that will chill it down, but I would be pitching my yeast as soon as it was cool enough to do so, rather than trying to store it for any length of time.

Don't stick it in a fridge, that wont cool it down rapidly enough for it to be considered rapidly chilled or to do you any good at all, it'll just work the crap out of your fridge & still take hours to cool down.

So in summary - No chill cube cannot give the aroma properties of rapid chill - traditional method, but can add extra bitterness if same hop schedule is applied? So, leave off the flameout additions and just let it sit until it naturally cools and then go with;

put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.

 

[Joel]

I've been no-chilling since it was first discussed here on AHB. But, I've had a several year brewing hiatus so I've only done a handful of batches with my current gas fired brewery + no chill. It really simplifies my brew day.

This thread has been a very educational read. It's good to see the art of back yard brewery science is alive and well .

I'd noticed a decrease of aroma in my beers as well. I've not given it too much thought as I don't do 'big' hop aroma type beers. But, lately I've been thinking of branching out and experimenting with styles other than my usuals so this thread has been very timely.

I like your summary Mckenry. Nice and concise.

From this thread I've come up with a chill to no-chill hop schedule converter.

The typical;

Bittering - 60+ mins from end of boil
Flavour - 20-30mins
Aroma - 0-10mins

Becomes;
Bittering - 60+ mins from end of boil
Flavour - 0-10 mins
Aroma - put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the secondary fermenter/bottleing bucket/keg (to paraphase Philip).

 

[Bribie G]

I'm currently doing an American Amber about to go into secondary, and a Ruddles type bitter in the cube waiting for a spot in the brewfridge.
Yesterday I 'wet hopped' the AA using a big glass teapot I got from an op shop for about $4. It's pure 1970s but does a great job of making hop 'tea' and also good for steeping grains.

I'll be doing the same with the Ruddles plus Bramling Cross as it's a big hop beer as well.