No Chill Hop Additions

[Mud Gecko]

Thanks for the replies. Yeah I have the no-chill box checked, if the desinger of the receipe says leave it, then thats what I'll do Looking forward to this brew :beerbang:

 

[Barley Belly]

if the desinger of the receipe says leave it, then thats what I'll do

Good luck :icon_cheers:

 

[Crusty]

My recipes do not need adjusting.

I always wait 10-20 minutes after flameout during which time the wort is cooling down. So the recipe already takes this into account. I'm yet to be convinced that this is different to what no chillers do assuming you whirlpool after flameout and allow the break to settle. I then run it through a plate chiller which can take 5-10 mins depending on the chilling water temperature.

I read a paper recently which talked about the rate of alpha acid isomerisation as a function of temperature. From memory it was halved with every drop of 10C but i don't think it took into account the time it takes for alpha acids to dissolve (they are poorly soluble) as I suspect they added pure AAs already in solution. I can't put my fingers on it at the moment but that would be useful if we also had a rate of cooling of wort after flameout. Would help demystify this somewhat.

But..... i think the best way to find out for yourself is to brew the same recipe twice. First with no adjustments to the recipe and the second with whatever no cgill adjustment you deem appropriate.

My golden ale recipe is designed using tinseth in beersmith as are all my recipes.

I am brewing the exact APA I did a few weeks back, but this time I am not going to adjust my hop additions or quantities for no chill. I have been doing quite a bit of research of late & it seems you can't believe everything you read in good old Google land. I myself was led to believe that hop adjustments need to be made if you are no chilling but this may not be correct. The hops are in contact with slowly cooling wort for a longer period of time but I use a hop sock so any hops that make it to the cube will probably be insignificant to add extra IBU whilst the wort is cooling, it may be a different story if the hops are allowed to enter the cube, I'm not 100% sure. Everyone seems to have an opinion on this & I am going to confirm it this Sunday, so we'll see.

 

[hsb]

I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.

With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.

I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..

Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.

 

[Crusty]

I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.

With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.

I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..

Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.

I BIAB in an electric urn & my first one a couple of weeks back, I adjusted for no chill. After the boil, I let it sit for about 30mins & transferred to the cube. I got a bit of break material into the cube which concerned me a bit at first. I cracked open one of my beers last night & although it's only a week old, it's quite a good beer. It has a nice hop aroma to it & a really nice citrus note from the cascade, it's a really good beer.

 

[mje1980]

I gave up adjusting anything. I just do additions as normal, no chill and see what I get. If it isn't right, I just amend the additions in the recipe. I found it too confusing and more importantly inconsistent to 'adjust' for No Chill.

With flameout hops, I kill the flame, wait a moment, throw them all in, then whirlpool and cube pretty much immediately.

I think being consistent is the most important thing, then you can bump the flameout or do a dry hop if you feel it lacks aroma punch etc..

Luckily I'm not a hop monster (yet) so not a problem if the aroma doesn't make my hair stand on end.

This was my thinking when i started doing it. I've found for me it works fine. My beers are more "hoppy" than bitter, so i think i have a little wiggle room. The only time i've had problems was when i used a shitload of 14.3% Galaxy hops, was super bitter. Other than that, i've had no problems, even with doing 10 minute no chilled AIPA's, the beers have been great.

For aroma, i prefer dry hopping than any other method.

The combinations of different people's systems, the hops used, and people's different tastes make these kind of things a "suck it and see" thing.

 

[seemax]

There's also the option to do a post chill mini boil.

No late or flame out hops. NC as per normal. Chill NC cube to say 4C. Draw off 4L, bring up to boil and add your late additions (ie 15,10,0 or whatever) as per normal. Strain the boiled wort into your fermentor, add the remaining chilled wort... splish splosh to aerate...make sure it's at your desired pitching temp and pitch away.

This way you don't have to worry about NC adjustment and you get the benefits of flavour/aroma hops. Of course it does involve more work... but worth a try.

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

When I stared BIAB (3V now with Hernit) I went as per hops schedules and have always no chilled. Got some seriously bitter beers in the beginning. Now use Brewmate no chill button and have had great beers ever since..........
Cheers
BBB

 

[sponge]

Ive been adding 15min onto my hop additions for NC, and have been getting better results that without adjusting.

Once again, this is for my setup only and YMMV.

As can be seen in previous posts, brewers have not adjusted their additions and produced delicious beers.

Best way is to do a few different brews of the same beer with different adjustments.

You'll know what works for your system after a few trials



Sponge

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I am brewing the exact APA I did a few weeks back, but this time I am not going to adjust my hop additions or quantities for no chill. I have been doing quite a bit of research of late & it seems you can't believe everything you read in good old Google land. I myself was led to believe that hop adjustments need to be made if you are no chilling but this may not be correct. The hops are in contact with slowly cooling wort for a longer period of time but I use a hop sock so any hops that make it to the cube will probably be insignificant to add extra IBU whilst the wort is cooling, it may be a different story if the hops are allowed to enter the cube, I'm not 100% sure. Everyone seems to have an opinion on this & I am going to confirm it this Sunday, so we'll see.

but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.

Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.

Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.

Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.

There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.

 

[Nick JD]

but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.

Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.

Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.

Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.

There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.

Question: how long does it take for all the available bittering compounds to enter solution from a whole hop flower? 30 seconds? 15 minutes? 90 minutes?

 

[Helles]

but you see - the green stuff that you leave behind, has nothing to do with it, people who think it does, misunderstand how hops work.

Hops contain alpha acids, which are insoluble in cold wort or beer, but soluble in hot wort. Boiling hops dissolves the alpha acids and then causes a chemical change which turns them into compounds which are actually soluble in cold wort or beer, leaving them to do the job of bittering your brew.

Do you see how that makes the presence or lack of hop material in your cube irrelevant? The alpha acids have dissolved, they are now in the liquid, not the solid part of your brew. Leaving the solids behind is going to make little difference.

Whether or not you find it necessary to adjust your recipes is going to be entirely up to how you like the way your beers turn out, and will certainly depend on what sort of beer you are brewing - but whether or not you use a hopsock, is going to make little to no difference to that. There is just no reason that it would.

There isn't any real need to worry about opinion - worry about how and why things actually work, then apply a little logic and a lot more experience to that knowledge - everything else just falls into place.

I was under the impression that the hop oils needed to be boiled to extract bitterness
The only thing you could lose is flavour and aroma with NC
I Chill would not know from experience just what i go by

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Question: how long does it take for all the available bittering compounds to enter solution from a whole hop flower? 30 seconds? 15 minutes? 90 minutes?

absolutely - which is why this stuff is so definitely in the "you're just going to have to work it out for yourself" category.

Hop flowers work very differently to pellets, even in the boil and very much so in no chill. You get less bittering potential from flowers than pellets in a boil, primarily because of what you are talking about, the time taken for the physical action of the boil to access and release the resins. One of the reasons for a vigarous boil. But if you use pellets, they break up more or less instantly and the resins are released and dissolved nearly that quickly. in no chill, and also in whirlpool and even late additions, the flowers aren't beaten up enough to release all the resins, so plenty of it never dissolves and thus never isomerises.

The basics remain - a no chilled beer that has hops added later than very early in the boil, will be more bitter than a beer hopped in the same way, but which has been rapidly cooled.

How much more bitter? is the question - one which really needs to be answered after you've done a bunch of brews and worked it out for yourself. The about 20mins figure, which originates from me in the first place so I feel the need to clarify it, is just a reasonably well supported place to start your tweaking, if and when you do notice differences for which you want to compensate.

 

[Crusty]

Well, I didn't risk it or take the plunge. I done my second BIAB on Saturday night & it was awesome. Volumes were spot on & I achieved an 85% efficiency & am very happy with that. Due to my recipes being worked out on 70% efficiency, I ended up with 23lt @1.056 instead of 23lt @1.046.
I decided to leave the no chill tick box as is in BrewMate & I think after all the comments & feedback, you probably will get a more bitter beer if no chilling so I went with the recipe. Cube sample tastes identical to my last APA, very nice.

 

[Spiesy]

Well, I didn't risk it or take the plunge. I done my second BIAB on Saturday night & it was awesome. Volumes were spot on & I achieved an 85% efficiency & am very happy with that. Due to my recipes being worked out on 70% efficiency, I ended up with 23lt @1.056 instead of 23lt @1.046.
I decided to leave the no chill tick box as is in BrewMate & I think after all the comments & feedback, you probably will get a more bitter beer if no chilling so I went with the recipe. Cube sample tastes identical to my last APA, very nice.

85% in BIAB? Far out... that's bloody good efficiency!

Has anyone every thrown hops into a cube, in a hop bag - for a late hop addition? Surely that would be preferable for a late hop (aroma) addition in the world of No Chill?

 

[seemax]

Tried cube hopping on few occasions. Didn't find it added much aroma so stopped bothering.

The mini boil after chilling is the best of both worlds IMO (convenience of NC and aroma/flavour of late/flame out hops).

 

[seemax]

85% at pre boil isn't hard to believe with a fine crush and sparge of some sort.

 

[Crusty]

85% in BIAB? Far out... that's bloody good efficiency!

Has anyone every thrown hops into a cube, in a hop bag - for a late hop addition? Surely that would be preferable for a late hop (aroma) addition in the world of No Chill?

Mid to high 80's efficiency is quite common with BIAB.
BribieG hit 86% efficiency on his last brew.
You don't need to recirculate to achieve better efficiency. Full volume mash for 90mins followed by a 78deg mash out for 0mins will get you there. My crush isn't super fine. I used my credit card as the gap for my mill as I couldn't find the bloody feeler gauge. I'm pretty happy with that result.

 

[Crusty]

85% at pre boil isn't hard to believe with a fine crush and sparge of some sort.

True.
I measured into fermenter (brewhouse efficiency) & got 85% post boil.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Sort of relevant i guess...but i have become a fan of chilling in the cube or slow chill what ever you want to call it for beers with late hops.

A few minutes after FO add hops, stir for 5 mins, let sit for 10min, drain to jerry, squeeze all air out and seal, let sit for 5min on each side, chuck in open concrete water tank with rope.
This time of year its too cold to pitch yeast after 1/2 hour in there.
I usually pitch the next day but left the last brew for 4 days with no ill effects. Of course others MMV