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Late Hopping Schedule - Best technique for maximizing flavor

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Luxo_Aussie

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Been reflecting on some of my latest hoppy brews and bitterness has still been dominating many of the batches even when all the additions have been happening in the last 20 minutes. I usually do my hoppy beers with a 30 minute boil and additions at 20/15min, 5min, 0m + dryhop.

Read this "We’ve also learned that these aromatic oils are extremely volatile, which means the bulk of the oils will boil away in as little as 10–15 minutes in the boil. The net result is that we now understand that boiling hops, even for a short period, does not preserve the flavor and aroma we most want to preserve in beer. The former “flavor” additions don’t add much flavor; they primarily contribute bitterness, which of course can be more efficiently done with a bittering addition. Whirlpool and dry-hop additions done below boiling temperatures do a much better job of preserving desirable hops oils." on a beer & brewing piece and keen to try a different route.

With this in mind, I'm wondering if it's better (for APA, XPA, IPA style) to add a few grams of a clean bittering hop (Warrior/Magnum/Northern Brewer) for 60 minutes (if needed) and then just add the flavor hops at 0m +/or whirlpool + dry hop to push through the flavor better. I'd also have more flavor hops to use for the whirlpool/dry hop since they won't be needed for a 20/15min addition. Also, would I even need a 0m addition or should I just whirlpool for 20 minutes at 80 degrees to maximize flavor? My only concern with not using a 0min addition is that there's going to be limited flavor with plenty of aroma. Any ideas?

Cheers & Thanks!
 

The Mack

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Just add the majority of your hops either at whirlpool (or if you no chill, directly into the cube and fill the cube at about 80c).

I regularly add no hops during the boil at all, whirlpool, add all my hops to the cube and transfer ~ 80c. Dry hop day 3 or so and again just before terminal gravity if you're after a hazy beer, or add all dry hops just before terminal if you're not after that. Flavour is intrinsically linked with aroma.

Plus, if you keg there's always keg hopping to help boost and retain aroma- particularly well suited to cryo hops.
 

goatchop41

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I'm wondering if it's better (for APA, XPA, IPA style) to add a few grams of a clean bittering hop (Warrior/Magnum/Northern Brewer) for 60 minutes (if needed) and then just add the flavor hops at 0m +/or whirlpool + dry hop to push through the flavor better
Yes, this is exactly what you need to do. I haven't made a hop addition outside of at the start or end of the boil for a couple of years now, and all of my beers are better for it.

Also, would I even need a 0m addition or should I just whirlpool for 20 minutes at 80 degrees to maximize flavor? My only concern with not using a 0min addition is that there's going to be limited flavor with plenty of aroma
I personally think that the whole idea of hops that are put in at a certain time contributing 'more flavour' and then 'more aroma' at another time is bollocks. Either way, the hop oils will be in the wort, and they will be adding both flavour and aroma. I'm not actually aware of any real reason why one time should add flavour and one aroma. Anyone who has thrown in a big dry hop will tell you that it adds both flavour and aroma, but for some reason there are homebrewing guides that still say that dry hopping is all about aroma - which is absurd.

Don't overthink it! Just go big on your flameout, whirlpool and dry hop additions, then add an extra hop charge at the start of the boil if you really need some extra IBUs
 

contrarian

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The critical thing in getting the flavours you want is understanding the impact that temperature and time have on alpha acids being converted to add bitterness.

I no chill and most of my beers were too bitter following standard recipes so I have adapted my additions to suit the way I brew. If I want to make an XPA for example, I will have no addition until the whirlpool and then wait until the wort temperature is about 85C before whirlpooling and adding hops.

In lower hopped beers like pilsners I still do a 60 minute and 15 minute addition but generally with lower aa% hops and these come out fine.

If you chill then you need to approach it differently.

The reason hops added at different times add different things is the rate of conversion of alpha acids, except dry hops where this doesn't happen at all!
 

Luxo_Aussie

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Cheers for the feedback, sounds like very late or whirlpool is the go to get flavour on hop forward beers.

Is there even any point in adding hops at (for example) at 30min/20min/15min since this would just end up with a limited bittering effect with the flavour/aroma elements lost from the boil? Or do some styles benefit from these 'mid boil' additions?
 

goatchop41

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The reason hops added at different times add different things is the rate of conversion of alpha acids, except dry hops where this doesn't happen at all!
Except that dry hopping can affect perceived bitterness, so it they still need to be considered when planning desired bitterness
 

butisitart

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after all these years, about to go the first dry hop via coffee plunger tea after reading about 200kg of posts. but none actually mentioned quantities, soooo, i'm leaning towards the sorts of quantities that we did when we were weaning off kit beer - 4-5 gr of most mid-range IBU stuff was plenty for 23L fermenter aroma. maybe 6-7 gm for low IBU like hallertau etc. certainly eg beersmith shows no difference on beer bitterness after adding late hops, but doesn't look like it measures for aroma, either.
or is there a different aroma scale to think about, given that ibu and bitterness doesn't really count here.
i prefer my hopping to subtly compliment the beer, not to own the bloody thing. (i have a theory that high hopped commercial 'boutique' beers are only high hopped to disguise the fact that the rest of it is still rubbish. almost never taste malt or yeast profile in them.
thoughts, formulae welcome
haha - there's another thread just fired up on that very topic. i moving over there
 
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goatchop41

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4-5 gr of most mid-range IBU stuff was plenty for 23L fermenter aroma. maybe 6-7 gm for low IBU like hallertau etc
Do you mean 4-5g/L, or really just 4-5g? If you do actually mean 4-5g, you could get just as much hop character by waving the bag of hops near the fermenter!

about to go the first dry hop via coffee plunger tea
That isn't dry hopping, that's hop tea. It'll give you a different character, especially if you're doing it with boiling water. The heat will isomerise and change of some the acids/oils in the hops. If you want to properly dry hop, chuck the hops straight in to the fermenter (doesn't matter if you go commando or in a hop sock), that's how actual dry hopping is done

i have a theory that high hopped commercial 'boutique' beers are only high hopped to disguise the fact that the rest of it is still rubbish. almost never taste malt or yeast profile in them
Not only is this theory ridiculous, it's also incredibly insulting to the work of most brewers who make fantastic, highly hopped beers. No offense, but the content of your post suggests that you are quite a novice at brewing, so for you to make a baseless claim like that against great pro brewers is not only absurd, but also a bit laughable.

beersmith shows no difference on beer bitterness after adding late hops, but doesn't look like it measures for aroma, either.
or is there a different aroma scale to think about, given that ibu and bitterness doesn't really count here
It certainly does show IBU differences for late boil hops - I'm not sure what makes you think that it doesn't.
And no, there isn't really any measurable scale available to the homebrewer that quantifies aroma (that I am aware of)
 

butisitart

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bit of a list there, so ok,,,,,
1.......yes, i mean 5gm. (that's why i wrote 5gm). that's a fairly normal range of adding steeping hops (if we remember back to our kit days). cos the bittering hops have already done their job. this is purely for aroma. did i mention boiling water?? thanks for your 'response' to an honest question.
2......all mentions of tea that i have come across have been described as dry hopping, including by famous and great pro brewers, great and venerable people that they are. you probably can't name one off the top of your head without google, so let's not generate vacuous association. yes, as i already noted, maybe this post, maybe earlier, that i am aware that it is different to dry dry. but thank you so much for pointing this important point out as succinctly as you did. however, you didn't even attempt to answer my question.
3......i think my theory on high hopped crap by 'great pro brewers' stands. it's hardly rocket science. try and taste malt in most of them. you can't. if you can, then you are either dillusionary or you're telling tiddlies. that says dextrose and lots of it. it's not pro, and it ain't great. exceptions of course but not restricted to eg ~ endeavour (endeavour amber ale, drool drool), balter. (whatever happened to their brown ale?? that was serious good). if i'm 'insulting' the work of most of them, then so be it. they're selling beer-swill dosed up with hops and flogged off as something you 'craft'. they should feel ashamed, not insulted.
4......i agree that beersmith (a fine piece of software) shows late IBU, but on the design page, you need a magnifying glass to pick the slide difference.

let me see, 171 grainfather brews, along with biab, kit and whatever you do before that. yep. complete novice and i clearly don't have a f****g clue. not that this matters on this forum. because the forum is shared as a supportive learning experience for all. novices, great pro's, tosspots, the completely clueless. so when you haven't dry hopped before, as i haven't, you can confidently and freely ask dumb questions without being stomped on by some random camp Kommandant who decides to kick the shit out of somebody. had a barmy with the missus, did we??

this is the main thrust of my post. how dare you just stomp all over somebody's valid and innocent brew questions.
and you didn't even attempt to answer the forum question. so what's your point? (no need, not interested).

your abject attempts at australian english spelling (it's there, go and find it), your abrasive writing style, combined with your neoliberal veneration of anybody who you think is famous and 'pro' (usually attributed to PR and marketing, and quite american in its usage) tells me you're from the arse end of texas or somewhere. do you even know where bendigo is?? that's ok. I'm not sure which state texas is in either. for quote 'absurd and laughable', look no further than yeah, let's not go there.
maybe you got aussie and ozzie mixed up. try the sesame street site. i'm sure the kids there will think you're a tad droll. and you can bully THEM instead. they're probably shorter than you, they're certainly shorter than me.
now, i just need a mat so i can go and pay homage to you.
toss off, mate
 
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mingdie

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after all these years, about to go the first dry hop via coffee plunger tea after reading about 200kg of posts. but none actually mentioned quantities, soooo, i'm leaning towards the sorts of quantities that we did when we were weaning off kit beer - 4-5 gr of most mid-range IBU stuff was plenty for 23L fermenter aroma. maybe 6-7 gm for low IBU like hallertau etc. certainly eg beersmith shows no difference on beer bitterness after adding late hops, but doesn't look like it measures for aroma, either.
4-5 grams in 23L will not be noticeable. You will need a lot more then that. Even with really aromatic hops you want to start around 50 gr and probably more. If you are doing it in a plunger you should not use hotter water then 75 degrees if you want to keep the aroma. Personally I rather put the dry hops straight in the fermenter as it is easier
 

butisitart

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thanks for the likes, guys, says support, from where i sit. (wasn't sure what sort of reaction i'd get from around the floor).
how to deal with trolling and cyber bullying 101, thought it might get a reaction from him, but no.
our self appointed camp Kommandant hasn't apologised, hasn't answered, hasn't kicked back. nothing to say, it just ranted on then ran off. standard bully boy behaviour. never changes.
 
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butisitart

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4-5 grams in 23L will not be noticeable. You will need a lot more then that. Even with really aromatic hops you
want to start around 50 gr and probably more. If you are doing it in a plunger you should not use hotter water then 75 degrees if you want to keep the aroma. Personally I rather put the dry hops straight in the fermenter as it is easier
thanks mingdie, this is weird, you posted sunday afternoon, only popped up today. anyway, similar advice from others. i was headed for 65degrees (about the top end temperature for coffee beans. now THAT'S cold logic for you haha) on the steeping water, but had a change of heart mid-brew today, on 2 grounds.
i forgot to get a plunger, and not brave enough to use the wife's LOL. and i'm not running it through the barista machine. i like hops, but not in my macciato. AND i didn't have any hop socks (or stockings) lying around, so i went the old min 5min late add method one more time.
i will almost certainly try plunger and sock, and 50ish gms, and 15ish grams, over 4 brews, and see where i sit. then i'll tell everybody all about it :barf:. btw, just curious, cos i regularly go there, but is that a korean name, or slang oz??

5gm steep comes from the old kit days, and i remember it definitely lifted a kit flavour. however, don't remember how or why. maybe something to do with kit compositions.
 
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zoigl

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I find around 30 gms of any aroma hops per 19 litre keg added in a hop filter container to my keg works best for me. I find it gives me an instant aroma burst.
I sanitize my hop filter container inside my 10 litre keg of star san/phos acid (used to pump through my beer lines) and water for 5 minutes, then add the hops, and drop into my keg. I have tried hop socks but find the SS mesh container with screw caps work best for me.
 

butisitart

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One of the very few correct things in that post.

Goat did a great job of replying. If you're here to learn, then pay attention to his post and don't take it personally.
you're welcome to your opinion, but i can't find one other post where anybody ever went nearly that ballistic on somebody.
here to learn. tick. here for critical advice, tick.
and i wound up with said advice from other members.
here to get belted by some neanderthal. nah.
 

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