Newbie Brewer Question On Stout Ingredients

[TheLocalMuso]

Hi guys, I`m planning to make a Dry Stout (The Style of Guinness)

I have a can of ESB Extra Special Stout 3kg

And an Irish stout kit improver 1Kg (Malt extract, Roasted barley, Brewing sugars and Hops)

Do I still need to use dextrose/brewing sugar in the brewing process? Or will the the Sugars in the Kit improver yield a better result?

Thanks.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Malt Extract and brewing sugars (whatever they may be) will be the replacement for sugar.

Ideally you'll use malt for "sugar' instead of kitchen sugar. Once you get happier with kits and bits, you'll eschew kitchen sugar forever. It's there as a means to increase alcoholic content but doesn't add anything nice in terms of flavour.

Goomba

 

[Gormand]

From what I understand of those kits you wont have to... well except for priming (Unless you keg)
I believe that the ESB kits have all the sugars in the can, and then your adding more from the kit improver.

You could add more, but I doubt it would need it. I say leave it as it is, and if its good maybe add some extra next time to see how it changes things.

 

[TheLocalMuso]

Ideally you'll use malt for "sugar' instead of kitchen sugar. Once you get happier with kits and bits, you'll eschew kitchen sugar forever. It's there as a means to increase alcoholic content but doesn't add anything nice in terms of flavour.

Goomba

Use malt for sugar?
Does Yeast + Malt create alcohol as well?

I thought only the glucose from sugar is turned into alcohol...

 

[manticle]

Alcohol is a byproduct of yeast metabolism.

Any sugar they are capable of fermenting will result in alcohol production and carbon dioxide.

Beer is most often made with malted barley and often also exclusively so.

Maltose is two glucose molecules by the way.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Alcohol is a byproduct of yeast metabolism.

Any sugar they are capable of fermenting will result in alcohol production and carbon dioxide.

Beer is most often made with malted barley and often also exclusively so.

Maltose is two glucose molecules by the way.

Thanks manticle.

OP - What he said.

Sugar (kitchen variety) provides alcohol but also that cidery, twangy "home brew" taste.

Malt gets rid of this.

There is malt in the kit you are using, but (this is more colloquially, rather than something I have proof for) apparently the reduction process (i.e. reducing the wort acquired from grains down to the size of a tin - effectively dehydrating the wort) has a negative effect on the maltose within the kit (and therefore its ability of the yeast to eat the maltose, and produce co2 and alcohol), so they ask you to increase the alcohol by putting in bog standard sugar.

So - kit = reduced wort (i.e. hopped malt). Adding Dry Malt Extract increases yeast food, therefore alcohol.

Other tip for this - keep the temp under control - ideally for most ale yeasts it's around 18 degrees. It'll take longer, but taste significantly better and less metho-like.

Goomba

 

[Bribie G]

The ESB kits are 3k and are about the equivalent of two "standard" kit cans such as Coopers or Morgans. So they are pretty much stand alone and will make a VB strength beer with no further additions. If you add the "improver" kit you would end up with something more like a Sheaf Stout or a Guinness Extra Stout in the bottle, i.e over 6% alcohol.

I'd suggest use the ESB kit as is, then for your next brew get a tin of Coopers and use the stout "improver" with that one, which will also give you about VB strength. Then compare brews

 

[TheLocalMuso]

There is malt in the kit you are using, but (this is more colloquially, rather than something I have proof for) apparently the reduction process (i.e. reducing the wort acquired from grains down to the size of a tin - effectively dehydrating the wort) has a negative effect on the maltose within the kit (and therefore its ability of the yeast to eat the maltose, and produce co2 and alcohol), so they ask you to increase the alcohol by putting in bog standard sugar.

So - kit = reduced wort (i.e. hopped malt). Adding Dry Malt Extract increases yeast food, therefore alcohol.
Goomba

So effectively, the Kit has been compacted and "processed" to make it easier to brew with.
The downside is that there is less wort, And less Malt altogether. (Malt has natural maltose/Glucose)

So we have to stack it up with sugar to increase the alcohol content, since there is not enough malt to do this, Correct?


This also leads me into my next question, When priming the bottles for my stout what should I use?
I have coopers carbonation drops...Is there a better product that will do this job more effectively?

 

[TheLocalMuso]

The ESB kits are 3k and are about the equivalent of two "standard" kit cans such as Coopers or Morgans. So they are pretty much stand alone and will make a VB strength beer with no further additions. If you add the "improver" kit you would end up with something more like a Sheaf Stout or a Guinness Extra Stout in the bottle, i.e over 6% alcohol.

I'd suggest use the ESB kit as is, then for your next brew get a tin of Coopers and use the stout "improver" with that one, which will also give you about VB strength. Then compare brews

I`ve used Coopers Stout + Stout "improver" before, it was decent.
But nothing special.

 

[felten]

Sugar (kitchen variety) provides alcohol but also that cidery, twangy "home brew" taste.

Thats a little vague isnt it? you can add small amounts of sugar with no problem, some belgian beers are fermented with up to 20% sugar.

There is malt in the kit you are using, but (this is more colloquially, rather than something I have proof for) apparently the reduction process (i.e. reducing the wort acquired from grains down to the size of a tin - effectively dehydrating the wort) has a negative effect on the maltose within the kit (and therefore its ability of the yeast to eat the maltose, and produce co2 and alcohol), so they ask you to increase the alcohol by putting in bog standard sugar.

I thought the fermentability was governed by their mash temp, and they just mash it higher to compensate for the KG of sugar they expect you to add.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Thats a little vague isnt it? you can add small amounts of sugar with no problem, some belgian beers are fermented with up to 20% sugar.


I thought the fermentability was governed by their mash temp, and they just mash it higher to compensate for the KG of sugar they expect you to add.

I was quoting the first point, based on kit (and too many years of using them). With a kit, eliminating kitchen sugar (especially 1kg of it) or replacing it with malt extract immediately improves the quality of the beer. I just oversimplified the explanation.

As for the second point - your explanation makes more sense (hell I mash high all the time on stouts to reduce the alcohol), but I had it quoted (on another forum 4 or 5 years ago, and I think it was Dr Smurto on that particular forum) that in processing and reducing the wort down, it had the effect of damaging at least some of the otherwise edible sugars to the point where they aren't fermentable.

Again, the point is to point out to the OP that adding a kg of sugar "just because the instructions tell you to", without understanding why is hazardous to your brewing. If researched, then it might be the mash explanation, it might be the one I held onto for years, or a little from box a and a little from box b.

OP - as for priming, regular kitchen sugar is fine, or malt. I notice no ill-effects from using kitchen sugar, as felten points out - a little sugar is fine.

And temp control - especially if you live in subtropical or tropical climates.

Goomba

 

[TheLocalMuso]

That clears everything up.

Thanks for your time and input guys, I greatly appreciate it. ^_^