New user looking for beer gas in Melbourne

[Mr Nick]

Hi all,

Long time browser of the forums but first time poster. I've been brewing pale ales quite successfully for a while now and have my methods and techniques all pretty much sorted after a few false starts and I now want to move onto a Guinness style stout but the one thing holding me back is the dispensing aspect as I just cannot find anywhere to get "Beer Gas" without having to pay bottle rental. Does anybody know where I can buy a bottle for a swap 'n' go exchange in the Melbourne area?

 

[razz]

Hi Nick, are you looking for the CO2/Nitrogen blended gas cylinders or just a CO2 cylinder?

 

[Mr Nick]

I'm after the NO2/CO2 mix. I've already got CO2 setup for kegging my pale.

 

[MHB]

Not NO2, that’s Nitrous Oxide, the old laughing gas or go fast juice for boy racers. It would oxidise beer in a matter of seconds.
Razz is right its Nitrogen/Carbon Dioxide blend and available in various ratios.
Have played around with it in the past, personally I wouldn’t bother, but if you do you will need a stout tap with a restrictor in it and I would try 60/40 or 70/30 (N2/CO2).
You will probably need to go to one of the big gas suppliers and rent a bottle; BOC/CIG used to do a D sized which is what I used. Took about 2 weeks at 200kPa and 4oC to get the N2 into solution.
Personal opinion is it guts the beer, suppressing both malt and hop aromas. To my mind too high a price to pay for a pretty pour.
Mark

 

[Feldon]

Try Supagas. I think they might do gas bottle sales and swap&go exchanges.

https://www.supagas.com.au/categories/_hospitality-food/beer-gas
Supagas has various mixes of food-grade CO2 and N2 available (eg. Supermix 30 is 30% CO2 and the balance is N2).

(On the website's product page, click the 'Safety' tab and you'll see a link to a PDF of the technical data sheet).

Plenty of branches around the country.

 

[duncbrewer]

Suggest you carb the beer to the vols you want with CO2 or ferment under pressure to get the vols of CO2 you want first.

Then put it on beer gas. For example if you want 1.5 vols CO2 find out the pressure you need using a chart lets say at 8 celsius.
Gives you 3.6 psi of CO2.

With beer gas to get 3.6 ( lets call it 4 ) you would need if 25% CO2 and 75% nitrogen then 16 psi.

In reality though you will need more psi, guinness is recommended around 28 psi plus, mine is set at 38 psi but I'm using 20% CO2 as we couldn't get the correct proportions when we filled as the cylinder does get a lot more pressure than with just CO2.

Not much nitrogen dissolves in the beer, it just pushes the beer. It's great for some stouts but I'm not that keen on it for beers, never been a boddingtons fan.

Do be really careful that you have no tiny leaks ( as you should always do) , because the system is running under higher pressure and you have much less gas in your cylinder ( as it's compressed).

My gas man just fills my CO2 cylinder for me with the beer gas and I use the kegland mk 4 reg, rather than a dedicated nitrogen cylinder and connector.

 

[Mr Nick]

My gas man just fills my CO2 cylinder for me with the beer gas and I use the kegland mk 4 reg, rather than a dedicated nitrogen cylinder and connector.

Who is your supplier? I've tried contacting Speed gas as suggested in a previous post but I just seem to get out on hold every time I call and give up after 5 minutes of waiting.

 

[duncbrewer]

I'm in NZ but try contacting a liferaft servicing business as they have CO2 and Nitrogen for refilling the tanks for the liferafts.
That's who I'm using in NZ, but I do have my own cylinder.

 

[JDW81]

Not NO2, that’s Nitrous Oxide, the old laughing gas or go fast juice for boy racers. It would oxidise beer in a matter of seconds.

I hate to be a pedant, but NO2 is actually nitrogen dioxide, nitrous (AKA laughing gas AKA boy racer)gas is actually N2O.

N2O (nitrous) is a powerful oxidising agent (hence it’s use in racing), and anaesthetic gas (commonly used in obstetrics/dentistry/in ED). N2O is also a potent greenhouse gas.

NO2 is also an oxidiser, but much more toxic to humans. Also a green house gas, and lots is emitted by heavy industry.

Both however will roger your beer.

JD

 

[MHB]

Ya, your right wasnt paying attention
Mark

 

[duncbrewer]

I'm just finishing up with some thoughts about beer gassed with NO.

Nitric Oxide supplies loads of free radicals and drops your blood pressure. Don't think it would be good for beer either!!

Unless a health tonic from the doctor, now theres an idea, beer on prescription.

 

[kadmium]

Suggest you carb the beer to the vols you want with CO2 or ferment under pressure to get the vols of CO2 you want first.

Then put it on beer gas. For example if you want 1.5 vols CO2 find out the pressure you need using a chart lets say at 8 celsius.
Gives you 3.6 psi of CO2.

With beer gas to get 3.6 ( lets call it 4 ) you would need if 25% CO2 and 75% nitrogen then 16 psi.

In reality though you will need more psi, guinness is recommended around 28 psi plus, mine is set at 38 psi but I'm using 20% CO2 as we couldn't get the correct proportions when we filled as the cylinder does get a lot more pressure than with just CO2.

Not much nitrogen dissolves in the beer, it just pushes the beer. It's great for some stouts but I'm not that keen on it for beers, never been a boddingtons fan.

Do be really careful that you have no tiny leaks ( as you should always do) , because the system is running under higher pressure and you have much less gas in your cylinder ( as it's compressed).

My gas man just fills my CO2 cylinder for me with the beer gas and I use the kegland mk 4 reg, rather than a dedicated nitrogen cylinder and connector.

The only problem with that is that the beer will slowly go flat over time, because the CO2 will come out of solution over time, so the beer will go 'flat' over time.

 

[duncbrewer]

Why does the CO2 come out of solution? If you carbed at 4 psi for example and the CO2 portion is at 4 psi won't there be CO2 equilibrium?
The nitrogen doesn't balance because it isn't very soluble so the majority is in the headspace.

 

[kadmium]

Because when you carbonate a liquid with CO2 you then have the headspace filled with CO2. The gas is coming out of solution and back into it via the gas in the headspace. When you then replace that with pure Nitrogen, nothing happens as you have a CO2 headspace no Nitro. You then serve some beer. The N2 fills the headspace, but so does CO2 come out of solution to fill the headspace as well at a ratio of 1 mole of CO2 for 1 mole of Nitrogen, meaning the more pressure you serve using Nitro the quicker it will go flat. I hope that makes sense?

 

[kadmium]

Why does the CO2 come out of solution? If you carbed at 4 psi for example and the CO2 portion is at 4 psi won't there be CO2 equilibrium?
The nitrogen doesn't balance because it isn't very soluble so the majority is in the headspace.

Just read your reply again and for some reason I thought you were saying serve on pure nitrogen and not on beer gas. Disregard my moment of absurdity please hahaha!

 

[duncbrewer]

Whew I thought my Boyles law knowledge had gone out of the dump valve.

 

[Mr Nick]

Just a quick follow up on this in case anyone else is ever looking for this gas, I eventually found I could get it at my local Total Tools. They don't carry it as a stock item but they are an agent for Speedgas so just organised for a bottle to be shipped out with their welding gasses.

 

[clickeral]

Just a quick follow up on this in case anyone else is ever looking for this gas, I eventually found I could get it at my local Total Tools. They don't carry it as a stock item but they are an agent for Speedgas so just organised for a bottle to be shipped out with their welding gasses.

Hey is it listed as food grade gas?

 

[Mr Nick]

So the people at Speedgas say. It's their Speedmix 30 which is the same as the Supamix 30 that Feldon referred to earlier in the thread.

 

[duncbrewer]

So you should be pouring like this soon.