New Australian Style - Experiment Invite/Discussion

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Can't disagree with that per se, but they're not simply SNPA clones with aussie hops; to my taste the malts have been rebalanced in the best examples to account for the Aussie hops

Or SN Southern Harvest. To me is still a good solid AIPA with different hops.

I'm enjoying seeing other people's opinions and I'm certainly not taking this too seriously. Just curious, and I had the time to quantify what a S&W PA was if you gave it a BJCP category of its own.

I don't see anything wrong with one beer as being the only example of a style. Vienna Lagers aren't pretty much dead in Vienna, but it gets a nod. And Coopers are really the only brewery that does an "Australian Pale Ale". With the current Aus PA style - there's a very 'one-hop centric' approach with regard to POR. To me there is precedent of 'one beer' styles.

 

[vykuza]

I don't mind the flag waving - and having Australian styles is kinda nice - but I think more good will come from having a more generic light ale description - such as the previously mentioned Ross' Summer Ale recipe? That recipe works equally well with (US) Cascade as it does with Nelson - and I would smash either on a hot day.

How about asking for something more generic, that encompasses beers like S&W, rather than trying to define a style on a single beer example? More like a hoppier Blonde Ale perhaps?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I don't mind the flag waving - and having Australian styles is kinda nice - but I think more good will come from having a more generic light ale description - such as the previously mentioned Ross' Summer Ale recipe? That recipe works equally well with (US) Cascade as it does with Nelson - and I would smash either on a hot day.

How about asking for something more generic, that encompasses beers like S&W, rather than trying to define a style on a single beer example? More like a hoppier Blonde Ale perhaps?

Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.

Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?

 

[Nizmoose]

I disagree with this, to use the term style to me infers more than one example is available and while a style has to start somewhere it can hardly be termed a style until it has quite a few copiers and a larger range of beers to make it a style.

I Understand that and I do agree to an extent however I think when it comes to styles if you're ahead of the game a bit I think you'd find that a larger range would present itself. for example lets say this style was actually listed, I'd be willing to bet that it's popularity would grow and as a result more examples would be made available.

EDIT: theres several examples of this historically, without trying to be too historically specific styles like the Oktoberfest for example originated in one place before becoming more popular. The beer came before the style and the style is based around a very specific region with a very specific set of rules. having said that there are now many modern examples both commercially and in the kegs of homebrewers and I think the establishment of the style itself leads to more people trying to brew it especially now knowing what sort of numbers they are trying to hit and what sort of ingredients should be used. The fact that there are not many commercial examples is for me more of a reason to make it an official style

 

[mje1980]

Oh man, this just gets better and better. Honestly, creating a new style guideline, in the hopes that everyone starts to brew it?. Cart before horse?

 

[Nizmoose]

Oh man, this just gets better and better. Honestly, creating a new style guideline, in the hopes that everyone starts to brew it?. Cart before horse?

Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?

 

[Batz]

I was very interested in Australian ales of the past, the beer my Dad drank back in the 40t's is very different to what we brew now. Some years ago I did a bit a research and tried my hand at these beers, results were quite good. I'm not sure if I still have my notes, for some reason I lost interest.

Batz

 

[mje1980]

Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?

It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.

 

[Nizmoose]

It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.

That's fair enough but I would argue the motivation behind it is somewhere along the lines of its the only beer I've really seen which in descriptions by various authors the style is listed as "unknown". I think that lends itself to further querying and thought as well as discussion about whether it fits somewhere or doesn't and if not what could be created to accommodate its classification. Think of it as species classification and a scientific approach, if something pops up that doesn't fit in a certain group and the prerequisites cannot be edited then a new classification would be established.

 

[Blind Dog]

Not in the hope that everyone starts to brew it lol what would that achieve? It just give solid guidelines to people who WANT to brew it, and of course that not to say you need a guideline to brew something, you dont need to follow any rules, but if someone has created something unique which doesnt currently fit into a style and the point of the BJCP and other such organisations is to represent the beer that is currently being brewed then I cannot understand why a new style is such a ludicrous idea?

I don't understand why you need a style guideline to brew a beer you like? Surely the main benefit of being a home brewer is that you can brew what the heck you want? It's the beer that's being brewed that should drive the style guidelines not the other way round. To be fair I think that's where this thread started

 

[Nizmoose]

I don't understand why you need a style guideline to brew a beer you like? Surely the main benefit of being a home brewer is that you can brew what the heck you want? It's the beer that's being brewed that should drive the style guidelines not the other way round. To be fair I think that's where this thread started

I thought I specifically went out of my way to state that you dont need a guideline in order to brew something? My point was that it gives people guidelines if they want them? Thats the point of guidelines? By your logic lets not have any guidelines, lets just get the BJCP to hit the ye old delete button so everyone can brew what they want.

 

[Vini2ton]

Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?

 

[vykuza]

Good point. The guidelines I did write up sort of do this. A partly wheat based smashable Ale, not too big on body, brewed with southern hops.

Happy to have someone do an edit and see what comes out?

I'll have a crack at it in the morning, when this Zywiec isn't making the keyboard all bendy.

 

[Blind Dog]

I thought I specifically went out of my way to state that you dont need a guideline in order to brew something? My point was that it gives people guidelines if they want them? Thats the point of guidelines? By your logic lets not have any guidelines, lets just get the BJCP to hit the ye old delete button so everyone can brew what they want.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, just as you have misunderstood mine. My view is that there needs to be established commercial examples, and yes more than one, for there to be a new style as that establishes a base level of popularity. if we base new styles simply on what we as home brewers are doing or want to do then we'll end up with millions of them and surely that's pointless. So the only point we really disagree on is where to draw the line on the birth of a new style.

good discussion though

 

[biggles266]

Woah quite a topic - I love it! I agree with basing on Stone & Wood Pacific Ale - that beer changed everything in Australia. I remember the first night me and a couple of mates found it on tap at the Pig & Whistle in Brisbane in 2008 I think or 2007??? We started drinking it at midnight and just kept smashing down jugs until 4am. I think it holds a special place in the hearts of all Aussie beer lovers.

I like all the suggestions but I thought of using the word Ocean in there somewhere as homage. From the Stone and Wood website:

Inspired by our home on the edge of the Pacific Ocean and brewed using all Australian barley, wheat and Galaxy hops, Pacific Ale is cloudy and golden with a big fruity aroma and a refreshing finish.

It worked with old fashioned beer drinkers because it goes down easily in hot weather, so a low IBU is important. It worked for beer snobs such as us because it is just so damn good.

Variations would be along the lines of being refreshing and bringing out subtle hop flavours in a clever way. And being palatable for the old fashioned drinkers (XXXX Gold etc)...

I'd say Mornington Pale is close to the style proposed, I don't have the tech specs but it's refreshing and light but different hops altogether. (woops American hops just checked their website... oh well)

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

It seems a lot like making up a style for the sake of making up a style.

How American would that be :lol:

 

[Nizmoose]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, just as you have misunderstood mine. My view is that there needs to be established commercial examples, and yes more than one, for there to be a new style as that establishes a base level of popularity. if we base new styles simply on what we as home brewers are doing or want to do then we'll end up with millions of them and surely that's pointless. So the only point we really disagree on is where to draw the line on the birth of a new style.

good discussion though

I see your point and it is a fair one, I guess it depends on the rules as to whether commercial examples need to be abundant or just one is enough but it's a fair point, I agree that if you made a new style for everything a homebrewer did there would be millions but I think this beer really is a different style and I haven't seen many people dispute this if any. People have only really disputed whether it should be a style or not as opposed to whether Stone and Wood Pacific Ale actually fits anywhere else. I'd argue that if you have a beer that is commercially produced and you can't rationally fit it into any of the current style guidelines nor adjust the current guidelines to fit the beer into an existing one then naturally if you are to have a good beer classification system you would add a style to accomodate the new beer. If you can find a style that adaquately fits the description of light, fruity, AUS/NZ hops, late addition, low IBU, 20-50% wheat with high drinkability and refreshing finish then I'll pipe down and say sure put it in that style but if it cannot be done then I'd argue that by the defintion of a classification system and the way it works that if it doesn't fit anywhere and can't fit anywhere then it gets its own place.

 

[pajs]

Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?

I've just been reading Randy Mosher's excellent Radical Brewing book. He has a section (pages 84-7) on the history of 'sparkling ale'. As he tells it, the sparkling ales were a product of an 18th century trend to produce lighter, more drinkable beers than prevalent strong ales, but these new beers had higher hopping rates as well. This was partly an IPA story, but the Scots ran with this trend to produce beers called sparkling ales and were (by at least 1885) exporting these to America and the colonies. American and Australian brewers were also making 'sparkling ales' around this time. Mosher suggests that the only surviving beers of this line are those made in Adelaide (having become extinct in Scotland).

He has the Scottish examples as being highly carbonated, linking this to Scottish machine-making of higher-pressure suitable bottles. The American sparkling ales, Mosher says, fell between lagers and stock ales. He gives two recipes, on Scottish and one American. IBUs seem to have ranged between 30 & 50, alcohols at 4.2 to 6.4 across his recipes, with some use of lagering for conditioning.

 

[AndrewQLD]

If you can find a style that adaquately fits the description of light, fruity, AUS/NZ hops, late addition, low IBU, 20-50% wheat with high drinkability and refreshing finish then I'll pipe down and say sure put it in that style but if it cannot be done then I'd argue that by the defintion of a classification system and the way it works is that if it doesn't fit anywhere and can't fit anywhere then it gets its own place.

If that's the case you better start drawing up a guideline for jasper Ale, even the people at Stone and Wood can't categorise that beer .

Seriously, there are plenty of commercial beers out there that don't adequately fit a particular style, I know that Pacific Ale is a nice beer but does it really warrant it's own style? It's good, but not that good that's it's being emulated commercially.

 

[Batz]

Coopers Sparkling Ale. Is this beer unique in the world​? What anywhere else is similar? Any suggestions as to any international beers I could try that come close to it ? Or is it already an Australian style?

Agree Cooper Sparkling Ale has been around for ages, in Adelaide it was Cooper Sparkling, Coopers Stout and Coopers Extra Stout.
That was before all the other yuppie crap.