New Australian Style - Experiment Invite/Discussion

[dicko]

The BJCP felt the same, which is why they have historical styles and an attitude of "hey, brew a good beer, and the guidelines are wide enough for it now" with they 2014 revisions.

Certainly reading the pre-amble and listening to what was said at the AHBC by them indicates that their discomfort was a big reason for the revision.

I like and hear what you say LRG but with BJCP they still have a loooonnng way to go to cover Pale Ale styles.

Edit: hear not here

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

True, but I think they accept that, judging by the comments made.

The joke initially was "are there two categories 1. Black IPA 2. Not a Black IPA".

The BJCP head admits that truth be told, he knows that they're pretty restricted to what they're doing and really reacting to what is already being done. I think reading between the lines, they want to encourage new styles, rather than react to them already being there. And in asking for feedback, he mentioned that realistically only a handful of Aussies hassling the BJCP is what got a new style included, but he goes on to say "but if there's something missed, by all means tell us so we can discuss".

I think the fact that we have S&W PA and it just wouldn't fit into a style but has become the craft brewer's lawnmower beer is a fair indication that the guidelines are flawed.

 

[Nizmoose]

Lets call it an Australasian Ale then or an Oceanic Ale.

A dark version would be magic too. I was planning hopped up dark beer next so I might shoot for an Australasian influenced one. Galaxy as the bittering with an NZ hop for finishing, fermented with Coopers,

I'mliking where this is going, I tasted my first attempt at the S&W clone last night and absolutely loved it but both the real thing and my clone tastes nothing like I've really ever had before and I can't really put it in any existing style. I think a style along the lines of an Oceanic or Australiasian Ale (giving NZ hops and such a look in) could defintely work. Something light and fruity, 3.5-5% ABV with Australian or NZ hops and NO US hops (it would really make the style a much more specieal style as opposed to tainting it with overseas hops just because its easier). Sure you could add some american hops and still have a similar end product but I think if you wanted to brew a true Oceanic/Pacific?Australasian Ale the local hops should be stuck to. As the years go on there will be more Aus and NZ hops discovered and that would open up the style somewhat.

Something like this would be good I think:
Pacific Ale style guidelines:


Vital Statistics:

OG: 1.030 – 1.045

IBUs: 15 – 35

FG: 1.005 – 1.015

SRM: 3 – 5

ABV: 3.5 – 5%

Australian and New Zealand hops (eg: Galaxy, Victoria, Vic Secret, NZ Cascade, NZ Hallertauer, etc)
Light, sessionable beer with fruity characteristics and mainly late hop additions

 

[dicko]

I'mliking where this is going, I tasted my first attempt at the S&W clone last night and absolutely loved it but both the real thing and my clone tastes nothing like I've really ever had before and I can't really put it in any existing style. I think a style along the lines of an Oceanic or Australiasian Ale (giving NZ hops and such a look in) could defintely work. Something light and fruity, 3.5-5% ABV with Australian or NZ hops and NO US hops (it would really make the style a much more specieal style as opposed to tainting it with overseas hops just because its easier). Sure you could add some american hops and still have a similar end product but I think if you wanted to brew a true Oceanic/Pacific?Australasian Ale the local hops should be stuck to. As the years go on there will be more Aus and NZ hops discovered and that would open up the style somewhat.

Something like this would be good I think:
Pacific Ale style guidelines:



Vital Statistics:

OG: 1.030 – 1.045

IBUs: 15 – 35

FG: 1.005 – 1.015

SRM: 3 – 5

ABV: 3.5 – 5%

Australian and New Zealand hops (eg: Galaxy, Victoria, Vic Secret, NZ Cascade, NZ Hallertauer, etc)
Light, sessionable beer with fruity characteristics and mainly late hop additions

Your suggestion would be a good start Nizmoose.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Excellent idea Nizmoose.

I reckon you send it up to BJCP - they are asking for feedback on the new guidelines and specifically said that some countries will be under-represented because the BJCP is in American and without an international persepective it does get American-centric views of even non-American beers.

 

[Nizmoose]

Excellent idea Nizmoose.

I reckon you send it up to BJCP - they are asking for feedback on the new guidelines and specifically said that some countries will be under-represented because the BJCP is in American and without an international persepective it does get American-centric views of even non-American beers.

Thanks a lot for the encouragement I'm definitely keen to forward this on to BJCP but before that happens it'd be great if the people here could comment on the guidelines I put up to see if any tweaking should occur? I think it covers a decent enough range in the IBU department but my OG and FG targets were a bit of an estimate so any feedback would be awesome

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Thanks a lot for the encouragement I'm definitely keen to forward this on to BJCP but before that happens it'd be great if the people here could comment on the guidelines I put up to see if any tweaking should occur? I think it covers a decent enough range in the IBU department but my OG and FG targets were a bit of an estimate so any feedback would be awesome

I'm of the opinion you want a 4.5% tops beer, so I reckon 1.038-1.048 is a closer OG. Dry FG 1.008-1.002 to encourage warm weather drinkability.

Def agree with late hopping with New World varieties that give typical new world (read: not noble) traits in both flavour and aroma.

Appearance: Very light yellow to off-white colour. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. White head which may not linger, especially in lower bodied varieties.

Flavour: Balanced to slightly hoppy, but not very bitter. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with not a great deal of perceived bitterness. When hoppy, it should not overpower the beer, but leave enough body to retain drinkability. Clean yeast profile if using Ale or Lager yeast, with other yeasts (such as farmhouse, Saison, or wild yeasts) allowed, but their character should be muted and not overpower the hops or malt.

Mouthfeel: High carbonation, but not carbonic bite. Relatively thin, compared to traditional Ales, but not watery. Light malt backs up the hops, but leaves the beer balanced enough towards the hops. Use of wheat malt keeps mouthfeel "fresh", stops it from being too thin but does not add a 'breadiness' typical of German Wheat beers.

Aroma: AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. These need to be noticeable, but not dominant. Punchy fruity aroma, typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, whilst somewhat hoppy is still very much balanced. Whilst the fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is criticial as is a thirsty quenching character. Well attenutated.

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral if an Ale or Lager Yeast (minimal esters) or blended with hop aroma and malt flavour if Wild or Farmhouse variety such as a saison.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate), nor does it become an Aussie lager typical of large commercial breweries.

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale.

How's that Niz?

 

[dicko]

The AABC guidelines for an Aussie Pale Ale is

OG 1035 to 1048

and the IBU's are

25 to 40 IBU

and colour

4 to 7 SRM

For simplicity sake it may pay to stay close to these figures seeing that they already exist.

Personally I think that a max OG of 1050 would be in order but that is only me...

Apology; I was posting the same time as LRG...... I like his description.

 

[Nizmoose]

I'm of the opinion you want a 4.5% tops beer, so I reckon 1.038-1.048 is a closer OG. Dry FG 1.008-1.002 to encourage warm weather drinkability.

Def agree with late hopping with New World varieties that give typical new world (read: not noble) traits in both flavour and aroma.

Appearance: Very light yellow to off-white colour. Typically somewhat cloudy but can be almost clear. Cloudiness comes from use of wheat malt, not from suspension of yeast in beer. White head which may not linger, especially in lower bodied varieties.

Flavour: Balanced to slightly hoppy, but not very bitter. Hoppy flavour is from mostly late kettle additions, with not a great deal of perceived bitterness. When hoppy, it should not overpower the beer, but leave enough body to retain drinkability. Clean yeast profile if using Ale or Lager yeast, with other yeasts (such as farmhouse, Saison, or wild yeasts) allowed, but their character should be muted and not overpower the hops or malt.

Mouthfeel: High carbonation, but not carbonic bite. Relatively thin, compared to traditional Ales, but not watery. Light malt backs up the hops, but leaves the beer balanced enough towards the hops. Use of wheat malt keeps mouthfeel "fresh", stops it from being too thin but does not add a 'breadiness' typical of German Wheat beers.

Aroma: AU/NZ hops - with a non-noble aspect, such as Galaxy, Ella or Vic Secret. These need to be noticeable, but not dominant. Punchy fruity aroma, typical of summer fruits.

Overall Impression: A lighter, easy drinking ale made for a hot summer, which, whilst somewhat hoppy is still very much balanced. Whilst the fruity palate from late additions is important, and aroma needs to have noticeable fruity aspect to it, these are not overpowering nor overly bitter. Sessionability is criticial as is a thirsty quenching character. Well attenutated.

Ingredients: There needs to be a sizeable portion of wheat (up to 50%, but at least 20%) with pils malt or a lighter ale malt forming the balance of the grist. Use of caramel or crystal malts is optional, but these should not be noticeable. No adjuncts. AU/NZ hops with a typical new world flavour and aroma. Yeast contribution to aroma and flavour is fairly neutral if an Ale or Lager Yeast (minimal esters) or blended with hop aroma and malt flavour if Wild or Farmhouse variety such as a saison.

Comments: A relatively new variety with a nod to the hot outdoors "typical Aussie summer", retaining some flavour without sacrificing drinkability for hot weather. It is neither an American style Pale Ale (the body is too thin) nor American Wheat (wheat forms part of the grist but does not dominate the palate), nor does it become an Aussie lager typical of large commercial breweries.

Commercial examples: Stone & Wood Pacific Ale.

How's that Niz?

Absolutely LOVE this! Perfectly describes the style, The yeast notes and the use of wheat is a really good inclusion too! Looks like this is starting to gain some structure for sure

 

[dicko]

I just had a thought...

what happens to the Pale Ale that already exists eg Coopers pale and sparkling?

will this be a new category and the old one remain or should the guidelines reflect both new and old styles?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

New Category.

Something like Australian Pacific Ale, or Australasian White Ale. I dunno about the name, I'll leave it to someone else to think up.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Australian Summer Ale?

 

[Nizmoose]

I just had a thought...

what happens to the Pale Ale that already exists eg Coopers pale and sparkling?

will this be a new category and the old one remain or should the guidelines reflect both new and old styles?

Yeah completely different style. With regards to name I think Australia should be kept out of it purely due to the use of NZ hops. Pacific Ale would work perfectly and so would Oceanic or Australasian but I think pacific has the best ring to it. Summer ale could work although I think it brings itself too close to styles that already have sort of used that as a nickname and implies a light lagery sort of thing as opposed to Pacific Ale. (also it makes me think of XXXX summer bright and makes me shudder )

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I lean heavily toward Pacific Ale.

If they wanted to keep the AUNZ theme maybe Australasian Pacific Ale, or ANZ Pacific Ale.

Given you'd want the category to be able to produce beers made with Nelson Sauvin, Kohatu, Wai-iti, Galaxy, Vic Secret - I reckon keeping the AU/NZ thing is important. Another reason could be that the Pacific Ocean does border the US West Coast (which is home of IPA). I'm probably talking myself out of Pacific Ale, but I do like it.

I was thinking as to whether we should put a descriptor saying that S&W pioneered or created a commercial variety which has been heavily replicated and cloned by homebrewers as a favourite.

Australian Pale Ale is the traditional Coopers style beer.

 

[Sippa]

New Category.

Something like Australian Pacific Ale, or Australasian White Ale. I dunno about the name, I'll leave it to someone else to think up.

Yeah completely different style. With regards to name I think Australia should be kept out of it purely due to the use of NZ hops. Pacific Ale would work perfectly and so would Oceanic or Australasian but I think pacific has the best ring to it. Summer ale could work although I think it brings itself too close to styles that already have sort of used that as a nickname and implies a light lagery sort of thing as opposed to Pacific Ale. (also it makes me think of XXXX summer bright and makes me shudder )

I agree a pacific ale does sound good but I think it is too general and not reflective of the specifics in the style so Australasian or Oceanic would be more suiting to the style.

When I brew I generally like a chewier beer more so than a watery thin beer so I would brew between 1012 and 1008 and have a bit heavier fruit and bitterness to it, but that's just me, I like intensity even in my session beers!

 

[Sippa]

I lean heavily toward Pacific Ale.

If they wanted to keep the AUNZ theme maybe Australasian Pacific Ale, or ANZ Pacific Ale.

Given you'd want the category to be able to produce beers made with Nelson Sauvin, Kohatu, Wai-iti, Galaxy, Vic Secret - I reckon keeping the AU/NZ thing is important. Another reason could be that the Pacific Ocean does border the US West Coast (which is home of IPA). I'm probably talking myself out of Pacific Ale, but I do like it.

I was thinking as to whether we should put a descriptor saying that S&W pioneered or created a commercial variety which has been heavily replicated and cloned by homebrewers as a favourite.

Australian Pale Ale is the traditional Coopers style beer.

If your that bent on using 'Pacific' maybe a 'South Pacific Ale' SPA.

So much in a name! needs to encompass the style particularly without ambiguity.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I agree a pacific ale does sound good but I think it is too general and not reflective of the specifics in the style so Australasian or Oceanic would be more suiting to the style.

When I brew I generally like a chewier beer more so than a watery thin beer so I would brew between 1012 and 1008 and have a bit heavier fruit and bitterness to it, but that's just me, I like intensity even in my session beers!

I think I must have hit "post" just before you.

With the beer - I think it's more a loose descriptor of Stone & Wood's beer - mainly because it's such a heavily cloned beer. But then extend that and say "could you brew one with Vic Secret or Nelson Sauvin?". Also, there is a hint toward the fact that for our summer - it's bleeding hot and a quaffer is what it's about.

Don't forget that if you get a Saison at 1.002 - it's got a low FG, but is anything but thin and watery. And even my APA can be 1.009 and have massive body.

Just pontificating.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

If your that bent on using 'Pacific' maybe a 'South Pacific Ale' SPA.

So much in a name! needs to encompass the style particularly without ambiguity.

Actually, I really like this.

 

[paddy2]

Pacific is a big ocean. I reckon South Pacific Ale would make it more specific to Aust/NZ.

 

[Sippa]

Don't forget that if you get a Saison at 1.002 - it's got a low FG, but is anything but thin and watery. And even my APA can be 1.009 and have massive body.

Just pontificating.

Forgive me I am still starting out, onto 8 brews now, so much to learn.