Never Ever Again With Us-05/1056

[goldstar]

felten:
I've heard in an interview with a british brewer, I think it was meantime but not 100% sure, that he said they switched away from using MO in a certain beer as it was causing diacetylesque flavours.

Yeah it was the Meantime head brewer on CYBI covering their IPA. He was pulling his hair out thinking it was the fermentation regime but lab analysis linked it to the use of 100% MO. They now use a mixture of pale malts to combat it. They are using Notto.

 

[Jace89]

That meantime brewer interview on CYBI was great!
I always use US-05 for my pales/IPA I think it's a great yeast. I usually ferment with it at 18C, with either my base malt being JW Pils or Golden Promise(my fav malt!). One day when orderingy malt the brew shop gave me a call and said they were out of the Promise so I switch it for MO. The beer that had the MO tasted horrible with US-05. After listening to Meantime I was convinced I had the same problem, try Golden Promise instead maybe?

 

[browndog]

I've done literally hundreds of brews with US-05 and not had trouble with diacetyl. I agree with others comments that you may be super sensitive to diacetyl (I am like this with sulphur compounds) or it is the malt that is throwing up the honey notes.

cheers

Browndog

 

[QldKev]

It's funny but I haven't been having much luck with US05 recently either. Looking back through my notes I was getting beers that weren't as clean as they ought to have been and no decent settling, so bits of hops were floating round, which I put down to the US05. I haven't used it at all this year, nor will I get any as back up, but I used WY1272 in my APAs early this year and it was awesome.

Late last year, in desperation, I actually used a dry S-189 at 15 degrees with good effect for an APA - neutral and clean, let the malt and hops through well. I have a couple of these as a back up yeast.

cheers
Barry

I don't really find issues with diacetyl, but I never brew above 5%abv, as Brewer_010 mentioned I too have had issues with it taking too long to drop out of suspension. I tried 1272 which did floculate nicely, but it leaves a bit too much of a tart taste to the beer for me.

In my APA's I havn't had much luck with S-189, I love it in my Aussie Gold, but just doesn't do it for me in an APA.

I'm also wondering if what you are picking up could be a malt or something else?

QldKev

 

[therook]

Tony,

Give WLP029 a go, this yeast makes a great APA. What i normally do is make a Kolsch, then dump onto the yeast cake an APA and then dump an ALT onto that. 3 differant beers from the one yeast.

Rook

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I'm finding I have a slightly oilier, slicker feel since I've used TF FM Perle, as opposed to Bairds Perle - both with US-05.

Ironically, the latest incarnation started below 1.050 (whereas I always start at 1.056 or thereabout for the winter version) and I find it oilier in the mouth.

I don't actually mind it, it gives the impression of a bigger beer, but if I was trying to eliminate it, it'd annoy the life out of me too.

With the fermentation freezer, I'll ferment at lower (16 degrees) for US-05, I deliberately got it to 22 degrees for d-rest, and then dropped it down to 4 degrees to cold condition and then keg.

Goomba

 

[mckenry]

Diacetyl

My curse with this yeast!

I have finally after all these years made a truly awsome APA and all i smell as i take a swig is F#@king butterscotch :angry:

I have tried US-05, Wyeast 1056 and WLP001 and i get dammed diacetyl every time.

1272, 1275 1318........ these are the yeasts i will use in future!

US-05........ you can suck my mash paddle and choke!

:icon_cheers:

Hey Tony - have you tried a D-rest?

 

[RdeVjun]

Hey Tony - have you tried a D-rest?

Exactly what I was thinking. FWIW, I D-rest everything these days after being pinged for it at the Nats last year, a couple of days on top of the electric hot water system at low 20s sorts any diacetyl out.

 

[kenlock]

I've heard in an interview with a british brewer, I think it was meantime but not 100% sure, that he said they switched away from using MO in a certain beer as it was causing diacetylesque flavours.

Not saying it wasn't the us-05, just echoing batz' comment about malt.

I tend to agree with this statement. I did a 100% MO IPA with 1469 and got diacetyl, whilst doing a IIPA with 90% MO and 10% munich/vienna experienced no diacetyl (also 1469). Both brewed the same day and both with the starters.

 

[MarkBastard]

I'm finding I have a slightly oilier, slicker feel since I've used TF FM Perle, as opposed to Bairds Perle - both with US-05.

Ironically, the latest incarnation started below 1.050 (whereas I always start at 1.056 or thereabout for the winter version) and I find it oilier in the mouth.

I don't actually mind it, it gives the impression of a bigger beer, but if I was trying to eliminate it, it'd annoy the life out of me too.

With the fermentation freezer, I'll ferment at lower (16 degrees) for US-05, I deliberately got it to 22 degrees for d-rest, and then dropped it down to 4 degrees to cold condition and then keg.

Goomba

Interesting, I get that slickness too but I actually like it.

 

[argon]

I use 1056 or Craftbrewer american ale prolifically (don't know which is which as it's been re-cultured so many times), but i've never experienced nor had anyone ping me for it in comps. Usually mash Americans at 65 or 66C and always ferment at 18C for 14 days with a little bump to 20 for 48hrs before crashing to 0C for 7-14days in primary before packaging.

If it were me, this is what i'd be doing; (you probably do it already, but not a bad check list)
- aeration of the wort prior to pitching
- appropriate size starter or rehydrated yeast too much can cause just as many issues as too little
- some yeast nutrient in the boil to help things along
- pitch at your desired ferment temp, not above or below
- ferment at 18C (check thermo setting to make sure it is at correct temp... don't ask )
- after 14days ferment bump it by 2C for 48hr d-rest
- -1C crash chill/condition for 7days
- filter to keg

 

[geoffd]

never had a problem with 1056 or US-05 & have used it extensively, Have probably only ever made 1 beer below 1.050 generally 1.055 or higher.
Aside from the grain, either inadequate aeration or inadequate rest time seem the most likely to me. I generally brew for 11-15 days in primary & then bottle. I've never had diacetyl with any ale yeast strain & I believe I'm reasonably good at picking it, have had buckets of it in my lagers though. poor yeast health would normally bring other issues like phenolics, so I'm not as inclined to think it's the aeration.

Good luck in uncovering the source Tony, will be interested to hear cause if you discover it. You're not hypersensitive to diacetyl are you?

 

[bum]

Tony are you sure it's diacetyl ? I find US.56 highlights the malt profiles so much it can become honey like.

Thanks for posting this, Batz (and also to those who contributed on the same matter in subsequent posts). I've never noticed anyone mention this before and it goes at least part of the way to resolving a small issue I've been having. I got a bag of Crisp MO a while back and was getting a honey-like sweetness but assumed it was a yeast management issue as I've been using new yeasts with it (new to me anyway).

 

[seemax]

Nottingham makes a pretty decent APA... fast and clean at 16C.

 

[manticle]

I prefer 1272 but haven't had any noticeable butterscotch/butter/popcorn with US05. Even if you do, it seems surprising that you can't get rid of it with your fermentation schedule but I know you know enough to know that you've probably tried every known trick there is.

I use 05 with german pils and tettnanger at 60/20/0 and the hops and malt shine beautifully. Going to try styrians, halletrauer and spalter in the next two weeks with the same grist.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks for posting this, Batz (and also to those who contributed on the same matter in subsequent posts). I've never noticed anyone mention this before and it goes at least part of the way to resolving a small issue I've been having. I got a bag of Crisp MO a while back and was getting a honey-like sweetness but assumed it was a yeast management issue as I've been using new yeasts with it (new to me anyway).

+1

thanks, never made the connections. knew i wasn't a MO fanboy. now i know why. made soem connections click into place in my head.

not sure if this is tony's problem or not, but it sounds as though it might be a likely contender

mind you, i more or less dont use us05 and dont think i'm missing anything.

 

[Nick JD]

Overwhelming theme I'm getting here is not everyone knows what diacetyl tastes like.

 

[bum]

Or they're talking about something else.

 

[kelbygreen]

I remember about 1 and a half years ago tony bringing this subject upto me when I went to his house at the time he thought he was underpitching but if its still happening then thats cant be the case. I never tasted it from us05 but I dont know really what it is like so cant comment.

As said maybe he is super sensitive to it. I been put of us05 for other reasons though!

 

[Tony]

Wow... what an awsome reply......thank you all!!!!!! many helpful and intresting comments. I will reply to some below

It's funny (or maybe not so funny) when you identify a certain trait in a beer that you don't like and then when you ever smell it again it just puts you off straight away.

For me it's that banana smell...just can't stand it...don't know what it is but just can't drink it once it's there!

Sorry to hear about your troubles Tony....I use US05 in my APA's a bit....hope I don't start identifying that now...haha, betcha I will, then I'll have to start doing something else.

Hey by the way, that recipe sounds interesting, haven't used Centennial before. Care to divulge a little more about your recipe?

Cheers

Molly

I dont like telling people to search but i put it in the "what are you brewing" thread a couple weeks ago when i was making it.

Never used it but I've used 1272 for the past 3 brews and love it!

Have you been using successive generations or new packs each brew? I assume you leave the beer on the yeast for sufficient time to clean up the diacetyl?

I only use new packs these days...... i have dumped too much beer from problems with repitching so in a 50 liter batch...... i go with safety these days!

And yeah...... it finnished fermenting and i warmed it up a touch and rested it for almost a week before crash chilling and kegging.

From what I know - and I must admit it isnt much, you can avoid this by letting the beer rest for a while before bottling or kegging to let the diacetyl be reabsorbed. I use US-05 a bit but always at a low temperature and have not experienced the problem for a long time.

I have tried fermenting at low and higher temps....... still get it. This one was fermented at 16 deg.

:lol: Not that Tony can't fight his own battles, but im REASONABLY convinced that Tony may in fact know this highly secretive point already.

yeah

I respect your experience in this area, but have you had someone else taste the same beers to see if they detect the same as you do? ... I dunno, maybe it's the "pink pokerdot freakin undies" ... you know... the smell coming from them that is upsetting your olfactory senses :lol:

Over the years, i have... as i said... used all 3 varients of this yeast and i love to have others try the beer and tell me what they think. Fot years people tried the beer with the 05 yeasts and commented it was "sweet" and i would say..... noooooo its actually a quite bitter beer, and they would say.... yeah... bit its sweet too. This always confused me but what i picked up was an oilyness and a muted hop character under what i thought was malt.

I really thought i couldnt make a hoppy beer and APA's were shit........because for me they were.

I have made the LCBA clone lots of times and i usually use 1272 in it but when i use 05 yeasts im always disapointed and people give me the "sweet" line.

Sooooo one night i took a a few bottles of it to one of the first HUB nights in Newcastle. Nost tried it and went....Mmmmmmm its nice but when Kieth (head brewer at Potters) tried it he just looked at me and said..... Diacetyl..... its just all butterscotch to me.

Well i took the glass and had a smell and BANG it hit me like a ton of bricks........ i had smelt it but didnt pick it amongst the hops. once it was pointed out it stuck out like dogs balls. I still cant taste it... i just get this slick smooth oily feel in my mouth when i drink the beer. Its very subtle but its there and only with this yeast.

The beer i have on tap now...... i couldnt detect it when it was cold conditioning but the carbonation lifts it to the nose and it smells like a butterscotch lollie for about a second then it fades and i get hops.

I have just decided to not inhale

I've heard in an interview with a british brewer, I think it was meantime but not 100% sure, that he said they switched away from using MO in a certain beer as it was causing diacetylesque flavours.

Not saying it wasn't the us-05, just echoing batz' comment about malt.

I have had it in beers made with pilsner malt, ale malt, vienna malt from varoius maltsters...... its there! In varying degrees but its there.

Tony,

What's your fermentation profile? How quickly do you reach final gravity?

US-05/1056/001 does throw up diacetyl, but it is also a good clean yeast and has earned its reputation as a workhorse that tastes like Switzerland.

If you're always getting butterbombs, then either you're really sensitive to diacetyl (which I can understand completely) or there is something in your fermentation regime that is causing it.

Although, it's definitely easier to swap to a different yeast that works better for you.

Years ago I used to brew almost every time with recultured Coopers yeast. It powered through ferments, produced a great flavour profile in most of the styles I made, tasted clean as a whistle through fermentation, but it would always throw up bloody diacetyl for me for the first 2-3 weeks of bottle conditioning. Go figure.

I chill to 20 to 22 deg, pitch starter that has been held at pitch temp for min 24 hrs and 95% of the time it is foaming madly the next morning. ferment at a stable temperature (my temperature control holds liquid in brew to within 0.2 deg) at between 16 and 18 deg setpoint and when its done let it warm up to 20 to sit for a few days before crash chilling for a week before filtering to the keg.

I think i will just use another yeast and im thinking im very sensative to it in smell..... not taste. I have spoken to others that can taste it but not smell it as well.

Id say those who say they never get are lucky ones who cant detect it.

I've done literally hundreds of brews with US-05 and not had trouble with diacetyl. I agree with others comments that you may be super sensitive to diacetyl (I am like this with sulphur compounds) or it is the malt that is throwing up the honey notes.

cheers

Browndog

yeah.... im thinking in sensitive to it and now that i have been shown how to identify it....... i cant miss it.

Its not honey..... its butterscotch for sure.... and for me its in the aroma, i cant taste it but as i said... its there in mouthfeel.

Hey Tony - have you tried a D-rest?

Yeah mate i D rest all my beers... warm em up a bit for a few days to clean up before i chill them for the filter.

I use 1056 or Craftbrewer american ale prolifically (don't know which is which as it's been re-cultured so many times), but i've never experienced nor had anyone ping me for it in comps. Usually mash Americans at 65 or 66C and always ferment at 18C for 14 days with a little bump to 20 for 48hrs before crashing to 0C for 7-14days in primary before packaging.

If it were me, this is what i'd be doing; (you probably do it already, but not a bad check list)
- aeration of the wort prior to pitching

check

- appropriate size starter or rehydrated yeast too much can cause just as many issues as too little

check

- some yeast nutrient in the boil to help things along

I dont use nutrient but AG mash......calcium salts etc

- pitch at your desired ferment temp, not above or below

check..... well maybe 2 or 3 deg out but not lots.

- ferment at 18C (check thermo setting to make sure it is at correct temp... don't ask )

Check..... i use a PT100 submerged in the brew to control to +- 0.2 deg

- after 14days ferment bump it by 2C for 48hr d-rest

Check

- -1C crash chill/condition for 7days

I go to 4 deg... but my fridge is old

- filter to keg

Check.... only this one i didnt filter cause the filter takes out the hop "edge" that bites at your tongue.

My true suspicion is that this yeast produces Diacetyl in certain situations, and i would say that my brewing process, my water chemistry and my fermentation schedule makes it make it.... and im sensitive to it.

Im not changing how i brew cause i like my beer how it is, and so do friends, family and judges.
Im not going to go stuffing around with different water

I will just use different yeast!

Easy!

I love the beer produced by the "05" range of yeasts from all 3, or more suppliers but there are just so many other great yeasts to use, that dont make me smell butterscotch.

cheers folks