Need Help

[athomas550]

Finally able to do it!

1kg 'Brush Box' honey (from the honey wholesaler down the road).
Cleaned the gear needed in sanitiser for the gig.
Warmed the honey in the sink with warm water - easier to pour.
Mixed it in two parts with 500ml. of spring water in measuring jug, into demi-john.
Rinsed the container with tepid water, added to demi.
Added stopper to demi and shook the whatsis out of it to mix and oxygenate.
All in all used 1.6 litre spring water in the above mixes, added the extra spring water to 3.4litres.
Took Sg. reading - 1.180
Warmed water and added a teaspoon of D47 yeast and a teaspoon of yeast nutrient to a jug, mixed and waited for foaming reaction.
Added this mix to demi-john, inserted airlock to demi.
The foaming has not started in the demi - just waiting.......

If you guys can have look see that this is OK. (That was this morning.)

Things are NOT OK :angry:

The above I made up this morning and put the note in the 'Yeast' post with it. Decided to start a new post with this new issue.
By this time, 8.40pm there is still NO yeast reaction, nada, nothing.

Can I add another lot of yeast and nutrient? If so can you describe exactly what to do, 'cause somewhere I have gone wrong.

Thanks.
athomas550

 

[OzMemphis]

I'm in no way an expert but a beginner, however that SG seems seriously high!

I am just waiting for a ferment to finish (Honey, Wheat Beer) and the SG was 1.058

 

[bignath]

I'm in no way an expert but a beginner, however that SG seems seriously high!

I am just waiting for a ferment to finish (Honey, Wheat Beer) and the SG was 1.058

OM, i reckon he's probably brewing a mead, not a beer.

Basically, it's honey, water and yeast. Other flavours can be added like orange peel, coriander, vanilla sticks etc....

From memory it's about right OG for a mead... Never done one so could be wrong. Would like to have a crack at one though.

to the OP, sorry mate, i'm not much help as ive never ventured down this road yet. Hopefully someone will be along soon that can. I'd like to know how this turns out (next year?????)

 

[barls]

this morning to about now isnt really that long, id give it at least 24- 36 hours before worrying. the gravity looks right for about a semi sweet mead.

 

[Wolfy]

Can I add another lot of yeast and nutrient? If so can you describe exactly what to do, 'cause somewhere I have gone wrong.

Yes you can add more yeast, however it it still an idea to give it longer, say 48h before you give up on the yeast you have already pitched.

However, next time you use dry yeast, do not add the nutrient to the rehydration water, also check that the water you rehydrate it in is the right temp.
Here is the manufacturers recommended rehydration instructions, its best to follow them as close as possible: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/images/library/ICV-D47_Yeast.pdf

 

[EK]

Note: I have LIMITED experience with Mead, I have made one, it wasn't that great, but I am familiar with the process.

I think you need more time. Mead must doesn't have the same nutrient content of beer and some brewers add yeast nutrient to the beer anyway. So it will, in my limited experience, take a bit longer. Also the literature on the subject states that the fermentation times for mead are much longer.

I would check if there is any difference in the levels in your airlock. There is only a small amount of space for a leak to occur in a glass demijon so the airlock will most probably show up any pressure difference created by the yeast making CO2.

My mead didn't really have much of a krausen on it, but the airlock did slowly bubble.

I wouldn't assume that you have done something wrong. Give it some more time, at least 24hrs, but it may take longer. My kit ginger beers never really fire up until day 3.

Is there any temperature control on the mead? You don't mention any temperatures in your post. What was the temp of the must and the yeast when you pitched? Were they close to each other? What is the temp of the must several hours after pitching?

In short: Relax, don't worry, have a home brew. Check it again in a day.

:icon_cheers:
EK

 

[Tanga]

D47 makes a nice mead or cider but seems to be sluggish in the cold. My cider wasn't doing anything so I threw some 1118 at it instead. I wouldn't recommend that though. It is slower to start than 1118 anyway, so combined with the cold and high SG poor yeasties are just chillin'

 

[athomas550]

Note: I have LIMITED experience with Mead, I have made one, it wasn't that great, but I am familiar with the process.

I think you need more time. Mead must doesn't have the same nutrient content of beer and some brewers add yeast nutrient to the beer anyway. So it will, in my limited experience, take a bit longer. Also the literature on the subject states that the fermentation times for mead are much longer.

I would check if there is any difference in the levels in your airlock. There is only a small amount of space for a leak to occur in a glass demijon so the airlock will most probably show up any pressure difference created by the yeast making CO2.

My mead didn't really have much of a krausen on it, but the airlock did slowly bubble.

I wouldn't assume that you have done something wrong. Give it some more time, at least 24hrs, but it may take longer. My kit ginger beers never really fire up until day 3.

Is there any temperature control on the mead? You don't mention any temperatures in your post. What was the temp of the must and the yeast when you pitched? Were they close to each other? What is the temp of the must several hours after pitching?

In short: Relax, don't worry, have a home brew. Check it again in a day.

:icon_cheers:
EK

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

My experience with mead or brewing in general is very, very little, it is a new gig for me!

The airlock levels are exactly the same, and have been like that from the beginning.

The ambient has had a max of between 20 and 22, minimums have been about 10 (in Brisvegas) over the past few days, (when I pitched). Before I pitched I took the demi outside onto the veranda, put it on the table to get a bit of sunshine, the demi glass was a bit cold. When it was warm to the touched I pitched the yeast. As I mentioned earlier I used warm water to get the yeast going (you could comfortably put your finger into the water).
A leaking airlock bung was what occurred the last time, the bloke sold me the wrong bung to fit into the demi, but that has been replaced with the proper fitting airlock bung.(but with the leaking bung, you could see the little air bubbles escape where the airlock entered the bung hole)
With my first mead - JAO - I noticed that the bread yeast did not bubble consistently, it slowed down at night. So to try and cure this, I wrapped the demi in several sheets of newspaper, like a sleeve, leaving only the demi neck and airlock exposed, this seemed to keep the bubbling going at night - temperature control!

Thanks again guys.
athomas550

 

[KudaPucat]

shit, I posted in the "yeast" thread thought you didn't have any replies.
Well, FWIW here's my response

Finally able to do it!

1kg 'Brush Box' honey (from the honey wholesaler down the road).
Cleaned the gear needed in sanitiser for the gig.
Warmed the honey in the sink with warm water - easier to pour.
Mixed it in two parts with 500ml. of spring water in measuring jug, into demi-john.
Rinsed the container with tepid water, added to demi.
Added stopper to demi and shook the whatsis out of it to mix and oxygenate.
All in all used 1.6 litre spring water in the above mixes, added the extra spring water to 3.4litres.
Took Sg. reading - 1.180
Warmed water and added a teaspoon of D47 yeast and a teaspoon of yeast nutrient to a jug, mixed and waited for foaming reaction.
Added this mix to demi-john, inserted airlock to demi.
The foaming has not started in the demi - just waiting.......

If you guys can have look see that this is OK.
Thanks.
athomas550

Mead has a long "lag phase" This can be anywhere from 8 to 72 hours.
After this phase, the yeast will start to eat the sugars. Until 30% of the sugar is gone, the mead should be oxygenated regularly to promote yeast activity. Just cover with a wet teatowel to keep nasty bits out.
After the 1/3 break, put it under airlock, and swirl/degass regularly until the 2/3 break, this resuspends the yeast and gives them a fighing chance, it also reduces the chance of autolysis.
mead should be fed at the start, the 1/3 and the 2/3 breaks with nutrient. It has been shown that yeast don't like all their nutrient up front.
DAP should not be given to mead before the lag phase is over, and it inhibits yeast multiplication.

1.18 is a rather high OG, I've never tried D47 that high, so if it doesn't start this may be why.
Also this will make a REALLY sweet desert mead, sweet by desert destandards.
If it doesn't start, I'd water it down until it gets to 1.14, this will make a desert wine, 1.12 will make a sweet and 1.100 and below will go dry.
NB: These figures are based on D47 going all the way, and not clapping out early.

If it does start, I'd start up another batch and get it to go dry, as you will probably want to blend this baby down so it doesn't feel like you're drinking thick honey straight from the pot.

Looking at the dates, I note that it's been a couple of days, is there any activity yet?

Edit: Also, as the title of this thread is 'Yeast' I'd probably start another post for this mead, I didn't read it yesterday because I didn't realise it was a question I knew anything about ;-) I'm not so good on discussions on yeast types.

 

[KudaPucat]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

My experience with mead or brewing in general is very, very little, it is a new gig for me!

The airlock levels are exactly the same, and have been like that from the beginning.

The ambient has had a max of between 20 and 22, minimums have been about 10 (in Brisvegas) over the past few days, (when I pitched). Before I pitched I took the demi outside onto the veranda, put it on the table to get a bit of sunshine, the demi glass was a bit cold. When it was warm to the touched I pitched the yeast. As I mentioned earlier I used warm water to get the yeast going (you could comfortably put your finger into the water).
A leaking airlock bung was what occurred the last time, the bloke sold me the wrong bung to fit into the demi, but that has been replaced with the proper fitting airlock bung.(but with the leaking bung, you could see the little air bubbles escape where the airlock entered the bung hole)
With my first mead - JAO - I noticed that the bread yeast did not bubble consistently, it slowed down at night. So to try and cure this, I wrapped the demi in several sheets of newspaper, like a sleeve, leaving only the demi neck and airlock exposed, this seemed to keep the bubbling going at night - temperature control!

Thanks again guys.
athomas550

Bread yeast likes it hot.
D47 is intollerant of temperature deviations, it's working range is very small, like 19-22 or something (Look that up, Lalvin have good documentation)
Cooler is better for D47.
10's cold, but I've brewed with it successfully with the thermometer reading 16 pretty constantly

D47 makes a nice mead though.
If it hasn't started bubbling (some really don't bubble much) theive out a sample and see if the SG has dropped.
Most common reasons for stuck ferments are:
a cold snap
too hot
too acid (big problem with mead, don't add acid up front)
too heavy (SG too high)
use of ingredients with preservatives.

If you're really worried, PM BrewerPete he knows about 1000 times more than me about mead, and has helped me out before.

 

[athomas550]

shit, I posted in the "yeast" thread thought you didn't have any replies.
Well, FWIW here's my response



Mead has a long "lag phase" This can be anywhere from 8 to 72 hours.
After this phase, the yeast will start to eat the sugars. Until 30% of the sugar is gone, the mead should be oxygenated regularly to promote yeast activity. Just cover with a wet teatowel to keep nasty bits out.
After the 1/3 break, put it under airlock, and swirl/degass regularly until the 2/3 break, this resuspends the yeast and gives them a fighing chance, it also reduces the chance of autolysis.
mead should be fed at the start, the 1/3 and the 2/3 breaks with nutrient. It has been shown that yeast don't like all their nutrient up front.
DAP should not be given to mead before the lag phase is over, and it inhibits yeast multiplication.

1.18 is a rather high OG, I've never tried D47 that high, so if it doesn't start this may be why.
Also this will make a REALLY sweet desert mead, sweet by desert destandards.
If it doesn't start, I'd water it down until it gets to 1.14, this will make a desert wine, 1.12 will make a sweet and 1.100 and below will go dry.
NB: These figures are based on D47 going all the way, and not clapping out early.

If it does start, I'd start up another batch and get it to go dry, as you will probably want to blend this baby down so it doesn't feel like you're drinking thick honey straight from the pot.

Looking at the dates, I note that it's been a couple of days, is there any activity yet?

Edit: Also, as the title of this thread is 'Yeast' I'd probably start another post for this mead, I didn't read it yesterday because I didn't realise it was a question I knew anything about ;-) I'm not so good on discussions on yeast types.

Hi,
After reading your post, had time to check and go over stuff.
1) The initial SG. I wrote down is WRONG, it is 1.080
That is all I could find with this mix.
How I discovered the mistake was, I put down a JAO yesterday afternoon in sheer disgust (need more refreshments), and using the gospel (as written by Brewer Pete), I took my time, no slip ups. So taking my initial reading, I thought it strange that there was such a massive difference between this reading - 1.030 and my previous reading 1.180, when the only difference between the two, at the start, was the fact that in the first instance I used 'Brush Box' honey and for the JAO I was using 'Iron Bark' honey, both from the same wholesaler. So I did another check and voila, 1.080 (sorry guys)

The JAO (with the 'Tadaco' bread yeast) is blipping along quietly, not as vigorously as when I did it a couple of months ago, but going never the less.
The D47 must be going because there are many, many bubbles rising to the surface, and the water level on the atmosphere side of the airlock is about an ^1/8 of an inch higher than the other.
What I have also done is, I have wrapped several sheets of newspaper, made a sort of sleeve around and under the demi, and this morning when I checked, while the ambient was quite chilly, the glass of the demi was not cold at all, and of course the rising bubbles I mentioned earlier - yesterday and the previous there was nothing.

Thanks guys, your input has been invaluable, I will keep you posted if you don't mind, a big learning curve on my part.

Thanks again,
athomas550

 

[KudaPucat]

Hi,
After reading your post, had time to check and go over stuff.
1) The initial SG. I wrote down is WRONG, it is 1.080
That is all I could find with this mix.
How I discovered the mistake was, I put down a JAO yesterday afternoon in sheer disgust (need more refreshments), and using the gospel (as written by Brewer Pete), I took my time, no slip ups. So taking my initial reading, I thought it strange that there was such a massive difference between this reading - 1.030 and my previous reading 1.180, when the only difference between the two, at the start, was the fact that in the first instance I used 'Brush Box' honey and for the JAO I was using 'Iron Bark' honey, both from the same wholesaler. So I did another check and voila, 1.080 (sorry guys)

The JAO (with the 'Tadaco' bread yeast) is blipping along quietly, not as vigorously as when I did it a couple of months ago, but going never the less.
The D47 must be going because there are many, many bubbles rising to the surface, and the water level on the atmosphere side of the airlock is about an ^1/8 of an inch higher than the other.
What I have also done is, I have wrapped several sheets of newspaper, made a sort of sleeve around and under the demi, and this morning when I checked, while the ambient was quite chilly, the glass of the demi was not cold at all, and of course the rising bubbles I mentioned earlier - yesterday and the previous there was nothing.

Thanks guys, your input has been invaluable, I will keep you posted if you don't mind, a big learning curve on my part.

Thanks again,
athomas550

I looked up D47 on lalvin's site. it has a working range from 15-20, try not to go over 22, it starts making hot flavours.
also at 14% tolerance, it will drop your mead 100 points before running out of steam, that's going to make your batch DRY. Hope that's what you were expecting. If it's dropped to 1.030 already then it's doing well, already pretty much at the 2/3 break.
Give it a sniff to ensure there are no sulfur odours. If not, then leave it be. If there are, feed it a little, and degass.

 

[athomas550]

I looked up D47 on lalvin's site. it has a working range from 15-20, try not to go over 22, it starts making hot flavours.
also at 14% tolerance, it will drop your mead 100 points before running out of steam, that's going to make your batch DRY. Hope that's what you were expecting. If it's dropped to 1.030 already then it's doing well, already pretty much at the 2/3 break.
Give it a sniff to ensure there are no sulfur odours. If not, then leave it be. If there are, feed it a little, and degass.

Date: Friday 29 July 2011
The demi glass was not as cold as found on the previous days, in spite of it being quite a chilly night (due to the newspaper sleeve I put around it) and this morning yeast scum could be seen to have formed on the surface of the liquid and more tiny bubbles were rising to the surface, quite fast and the airlock was showing activity, bubbles rising and escaping into the atmosphere quite regularly. :blink:

Yes, a dry mead is what I am trying to achieve. By the way, the 1.030 you mentioned, is what I achieved when I measured the JAO I put down the next day, making me go back to the D47 and having another look at it and that is when I discovered my reading error - from 1.180 to 1.080.

Now could you please explain to me the terms you used earlier - 1/3 and 2/3 break. I could assume but won't, best to get a valid explanation! Following this explanation I will go back to the doings and take another SG. reading, give it a shake and put the airlock back.

Thanks for your help and info,
athomas550

 

[KudaPucat]

1/3 is when 1/3 of the sugar is consumed. Same as with 2/3

So.... D47 will drop 110 points or so

However if you started at 1.080, then it will go dry. We'll assume 1.0, though it will probably get down to 0.995

So you expect 80 points to drop.
Divide this by 3 to get 26.6
So your 1/3 break is at 1.053
And your 2/3 break is at 1.026

SNA (stepped nitrogen addition I think its called)
Is a technique which suggests you oxygenate daily until the 1/3 break
And feed 1/3 of the required nutrients up front, at the 1/3 break and the 2/3 break.
This is an oversimplification, you'll have to do some research.
Also. Don't feed DAP up front, until after the lag, as it inhibits yeast multiplication.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[athomas550]

1/3 is when 1/3 of the sugar is consumed. Same as with 2/3

So.... D47 will drop 110 points or so

However if you started at 1.080, then it will go dry. We'll assume 1.0, though it will probably get down to 0.995

So you expect 80 points to drop.
Divide this by 3 to get 26.6
So your 1/3 break is at 1.053
And your 2/3 break is at 1.026

SNA (stepped nitrogen addition I think its called)
Is a technique which suggests you oxygenate daily until the 1/3 break
And feed 1/3 of the required nutrients up front, at the 1/3 break and the 2/3 break.
This is an oversimplification, you'll have to do some research.
Also. Don't feed DAP up front, until after the lag, as it inhibits yeast multiplication.

Hope that answers your question.

Date: Monday 1 August 2011 10.00am
Demi glass not cold, airlock showing plenty of activity.
Decided to check SG. As mentioned by both Lalvil yeast instructions and 'KudaPucat'.
Sanitised equipment.
Took sample and measured SG. down to 1.055, close to first break point. (1/3 break).
Replaced mead in demi, tasted residue in measure. Mead has lost a lot of honey sweetness and has an evervesance on the tongue (maybe due to yeast bubbles). The flavour is fresh with no yeast or unpleasant flavours or odours.
Removed airlock, replaced with rubber bung and gave a good shake to oxygenate. The shaking has produced a big build-up of pressure. Used this procedure a number of times. Finally replaced the airlock and observed that the bubbles that had been rising consistently had ceased. Decided to redo the procedure of oxygenating, again observing that the rising bubbles had ceased. Left the demi standing for a while but the bubbles did not start rising again and the levels of the airlock remained the same. Decided to follow the next step in the Lalvil instructions, by adding a teaspoon of yeast nutrient to the mix, and giving the demi another shake. Immediately pressure built up, the bubbles started rising and the airlock showed activity. Left the demi standing for a while and the activity has continued.
Will leave, but will continue to observe the activity. (the behaviour so far has been as indicated by the Lalvil information sheets.

Thanks for the help.
athomas550

 

[KudaPucat]

OK, bubbles ceaced, because when you oxygenated the must, you shook all the bubbles out of suspension. The airlock only fires when dissolved CO2 becomes 'saturated'. When you shake it all out, it takes time to refill to saturation. This is normal.
When you add ANYTHING to a must, expect massive CO2 release. This can be cecause the yeast go mad temporarily in a feeding frenzy, but is most often because you have (in a very small area of must) altered the surface tension of the must, and also the CO2 carrying capacity.
Be very wary of this if you have fruit in your must, and or you have little headspace, instantaneous foaming can resemble a magnum of champagne at a Grand Prix celebration, even hitting the roof in some circumstances!
Carry on, and keep us informed.

 

[KudaPucat]

Oh yeah,
DAP is pretty much useless after 1/3
So don't bother.
Some ppl say it can stress yeast or cause off/metallic flavours, but I've never noticed this.

 

[athomas550]

Oh yeah,
DAP is pretty much useless after 1/3
So don't bother.
Some ppl say it can stress yeast or cause off/metallic flavours, but I've never noticed this.

Date: Thursday 4 August 2011 10.00am
Demi glass not cold, airlock showing plenty of activity.
Will check SG today.
Sanitised equipment.
Took sample and measured SG. down to 1.028, close to 2nd break point. (2/3 break).
Replaced mead in demi, tasted residue in measure. Mead has lost a lot of honey sweetness and has an evervesance on the tongue (maybe due to yeast bubbles). The flavour is fresh with no yeast or unpleasant flavours or odours.
Removed airlock, replaced with rubber bung and gave a good shake to oxygenate. The shaking has produced a big build-up of pressure. Used this procedure a number of times. Replaced the airlock and observed that the bubbles that had been rising consistently had slowed right down. Left the demi standing for a while but the bubble activity did not increase again and the level of the airlock on the mead side was slightly lower than the other side. Decided to follow the next step in the Lalvil instructions, by adding a teaspoon of yeast nutrient to the mix, and giving the demi another shake. Immediately pressure built up, the bubbles started rising and the airlock showed activity. Left the demi standing for a while and the activity has continued.
Will leave, but will continue to observe the activity.

From what I can gather so far, the work the yeast does seems to be exponential ie., the momentum of the yeast work increases the longer you leave it, not doing a consistent amount of work every day (linear), it took a while to get going but once active, the 1/3 and 2/3 breaks were there before you knew it, would this be right? This would be a rough guide as to handling the process at a later date.
Also, How does one retain the fresh flavour as well as the 11% to 14% alcohol in the mix?

Thanks for your help.
athomas550

 

[KudaPucat]

<snip>
From what I can gather so far, the work the yeast does seems to be exponential ie., the momentum of the yeast work increases the longer you leave it, not doing a consistent amount of work every day (linear), it took a while to get going but once active, the 1/3 and 2/3 breaks were there before you knew it, would this be right? This would be a rough guide as to handling the process at a later date.
Also, How does one retain the fresh flavour as well as the 11% to 14% alcohol in the mix?

Thanks for your help.
athomas550

yeast does as it pleases, and is a different beast every time. It is after all, alive. It has different conditions under which we force it to live.
That's why we take hydrometer readings, and tell you not to rely on any recipe that suggests doing things after specified periods of time.
To take it to extremes, I know of one case where a mead was fermenting for over 12 months before the Meadher cold crashed and stabilised it in frustration.

Please define what you mean by 'fresh flavour'

If you mean a nice honey aroma, then you need to age it (recommended in bulk) for at least 12 months before the aroma comes back.
The drier it is, the longer you will need to age it.
If you mean the nasty snap or bite int eh after taste, this will diminish after 5 months or so, but again longer (double) for a dry mead.
Sometimes you can have it perfectly balanced and it's good to drink now. Most times not.

I think no matter what your definition of 'fresh' my answer will be "age it"
it will help if you stabilise and backsweeten a little bit, as fresh honey adds a fresh unfermented taste.

 

[athomas550]

Please define what you mean by 'fresh flavour'

If you mean a nice honey aroma, then you need to age it (recommended in bulk) for at least 12 months before the aroma comes back.
The drier it is, the longer you will need to age it.
If you mean the nasty snap or bite int eh after taste, this will diminish after 5 months or so, but again longer (double) for a dry mead.
Sometimes you can have it perfectly balanced and it's good to drink now. Most times not.

I think no matter what your definition of 'fresh' my answer will be "age it"
it will help if you stabilise and backsweeten a little bit, as fresh honey adds a fresh unfermented taste.

By fresh I mean no harsh after taste in the mouth and it just goes down smoothly, once you swallow the mouthful, the mouth is clear and clean, like having a mouthful of a good, chilled 'Sauvignon Blanc'. The effervescence on the tongue while you have it in the mouth I put down to the Co2 bubbles bursting in the mouth. There is a slight honey aroma, but most of it is gone.
This drop is not for drinking now, but for my wife's' birthday later in the year, so it is going to age.

Could you please inform me about stabilising and back sweetening as mentioned.
I read somewhere in this forum that mead has a habit of oxidizing, so to counteract this, the only empty space left in the storage container is in the neck of the container. To increase the 'volume' in the container, sanitised marbles are added to take up the extra space!

Thanks for the help, it has been invaluable.
athomas550