My Thinking

[jagerbrau]

Cams
Champaign against Mega Swill

I grew up at about 16 believing the media about beer, west end export if you were south Australian you wouldnt drink anything else. Today and for the last week I have sat and watched a mate basically die of marketing, a fool to the media guru. To drink a slab a night youre a legion.

I have know many mates of varies ages die of liver failure, the one now I see and understand is only in his mid fifties, the type of bloke you and I all ways liked at work. The one that understood a drink with mates and the value of good mates. Over 15 years I have watched this bloke age 40 years not 15. Now I argue with him about living his life out in care, making the little life he has left comfortable. Under 10% of your liver left you have very little hope of making a year.

You may say that he drank 4 liters of scotch a day, well to tell the truth I would have drunk him under the table at the age of 14.

My point is media and alcohol, I sit at my gym listening to the executives from west end talk marketing, believe me it is about hyping up this type of bloke, that with out this he is lost.

I sat at the local tonight, the lad next to me ordered CUB product and snob idly ordered a Stella artois, I said to the lad same old same old. His answer I know nothing of beer.

Mindless suits that know nothing of brewing, control the masses, these are the people that are behind products that are as close to Stella artois as coppers stout kit can and a kilo is as close to trummer pils. They prey on mates of you and I, with there mega swill.

It is up to us as brewers up holders of a tradition that has little to do with the current range of up holders of the tradition. We should educate those we know, tease them in to enjoyment of the nectar of life beer not the mega consumption of the mega swill. I would rather one good beer than a pallet of the mega swill.

Go into a bottlo and try and by an imported Stella, becks, hienie good luck I cant. The mega swill is meant for the masses to be consumed in masses. I have lost too many mates to this and hope that you never have to.

Just a point to think on as consumers control the end product by demanding more. A friend last Easter lost her 20 year old son, believer of the advertising he crashed his car, killing him self an 18 yr old girl and seriously injuring 3 others. Are the makers of the swill at fault, only as much as the the marketers of smokes are.

Far far to many loose. And it goes unnoticed. As those that suffer from this, suffer alone.

A dedicated brewer, and consumer of fine ales and lagers

David Hunt

 

[pint of lager]

Am really sorry to read about your mate and his illness. He is lucky to have your support.

There are many facets of advertising that are totally misleading, and at times, it is far easier to be mislead, rather than thinking for oneself. Advertising is big money, for the extra sales produced, for the broadcast and media companies, the advertising companies and eventually the shareholders. A huge industry. And the cost of the mislead and uninformed is born by society.

Education is an effective tool, so we understand how the advertising companies lead us around by our wants and desires.

Moderation and the consumption of better quality rather than quantity. Brew the best beer you can and enjoy it with friends.

There are a couple of sobering topics on AHB. The five star hangover topic and the recent liver problem topic are well worthwhile reading.

 

[Mercs Own]

David my thoughts go to your friend and his family and friends.

I have lost friends to drink, to drugs, to aids, to motorcycle accidents and to suicide. None of it is easy, none of it is pleasant and none of it is what we want for ourselves nor our friends.

BUT and it is a big but - it is us, own self who holds the power of choice. We choose how we live and in doing so also choose how we might die. I dont believe you can blame the marketers of mega swill. The tobacco industry has been shown to and proven that they have lied over the years about their product they are liable in that case for misleading the public but mega swill producers try to offer a distorted realty and lets face it once you are pissed reality is distorted.

I think it is important that people understand they have a choice in life about how they wish to live their life - sadly many people dont wish to be responsible for that choice and the consquences can often be devastating. Some times people think the only choice they have is to get out of the whole ball game and they do it through drink and drugs and food and other things.... My brother took his life a few years ago and a friend of mine took his also about a year later - wether you do it by gassing yourself in your car, hanging from a tree or through the demon drink the truth is it is a choice that is made by the individual - not by marketing - a choice that we must stand up and be accountable for.

How we live our lives is our own individual and initimate choice.

In the face of my brothers suicide I choose happiness - to live my life with my family and friends and a few (often too many) beers, good food etc I choose to live on my own terms - sadly others dont.

 

[wessmith]

Beautifully and thoughtfully said Paul.

Cheers, Wes

 

[Screwtop]

I choose happiness

[post="112361"][/post]​

Heard you mention this a while back. This is the same decision I made after 10 quite stressfull years in business. Before deciding on any option business or personal these days I ask Will I Be Happy in this decision. I choose Happiness now in everything I do. Some poor souls believe they make the same choice and choose the way out as a means to finding happiness. I too have lost friends, and wish it had been different for them. In the depths of depression and dispair the options are not always clear, simply living can be seen as the cause of unhappiness. We are responsible for all of the decisions we make in life good and bad, most days a good decision average of 50% is good. However if you only perceive a choice of two options 50% can be a pretty bad average. Marketing does tend to push perceived happiness buttons, but in the long run we need more knowledge of early indicators of depression and dependancy.

 

[PistolPatch]

There's a lot of interesting thoughts above and my best wishes go to those of you who have or are experiencing a loss of someone close to you. I think most of us can relate to the above and would have experienced some of it.

I also think some interesting observations have been made above on choice and happiness. Like the beer advertising, I believe that the New Age has lead to some false perceptions of choice and happiness.

For 14 years I taught seminars on advanced thinking. One of the major areas I addressed was the concept of free will. The New Age movement actively promotes the fallacy that people have total choice or free will.

As Screwtop mentioned above, people experiencing depression etc., have far lower levels of healthy choice than the next person. I have taught people who have had a sibling killed by serial killers (the Perth people will remember the Birnies), a young woman who had her children shot and her leg shot off by her husband, right through to an extraordinary case where one bloke had had 1 father and 5 stepfathers! Interestingly enough, the above cases now have a lot greater abilities in making choices for happiness than they did previously. Whilst they have higher levels of free will than most, they still don't have total free will.

I believe that some of us have, through luck or whatever, been given a little more choice than others. A retarded person will generally have lesser choices than a person with an average IQ and if you've just broken up with your partner, you're generally not able to choose as wisely as at other times especially if you're like me!

I used to ask participants in my seminar why they were so lucky to be sitting there instead of living on the streets. Most people would say they made the right choices which to me is totally irrelevant and I believe incorrect. Who knows why some have more choice than others? Did retarded people choose the wrong parents? Did the person with cancer choose to have that disease? Some New Agers will say, 'Yes.' A shallow and unproductive way of thought when applied in this manner.

As I just said, finding a reason as to why you may have a higher ability to choose than others is irrelevant. If you do have average or above average levels of being able to consciously make beneficial choices I think it is far better off asking the questions, 'What am I doing with my level of choice?' and 'What can I do to be of service to those experiencing lower levels of choice?' These to me are the only relevant questions.

Asking these two questions leads to productive outcomes such as better education as mentioned above which in turn leads to a general rise in happiness.

Some people will always be ahead of us in certain areas and maybe a little behind us in some areas. I have some very advanced skills in certain areas and am child-like in others. Often I am able to use my more advanced skills to shine a little joy in some dark places of an individual or simply lift the general level of happiness in a group. THis in turn increases my level of happiness.

Knowing also that I am only a child in many areas helps me minimise, to some extent, some of my stupidity and when I do actually exhibit stupidity I can groan at myself, then have a laugh and hopefully learn a little. This results in a slighlty quicker return to productivity and happiness.

When I see others battling with a difficulty, I see them as a child in that area. Helping a child who is struggling to grow is fun and rewarding. Expecting everyone to always act like adults and make correct choices constantly is unrealistic and personally unsatisfying.

Compassion is a very enabling thinking skill which leads to very valuable thinking tools. Education in the areas Screwtop mentioned above is a great example of the tool. Screwtop mentioning this reveals compassion which I believe we can all never have enough of. When used correctly it lightens us instead of weighing us down. It can even actually bring us joy when faced with some of the terrible things mentioned above or in the situations where we are unfortunatley unable to teach or help an adult 'child'.

I think that whilst there are many things we will never understand there are still many more things we can actually do.

Best wishes all.

 

[jagerbrau]

i agree with you all,some beautifully written words. i also belive it is the choice of the individual, some people do have a gentic problem that leads to compulsive adictive behaviours, why else are some people that i have drank with alcoholics and i am not, i probebly could have and whould have drunk them under the table.

thinking through most of the people i know with problems, it seems to be genetic, fathers brothers and rest effected.

i used to be a mega swill drinker.

enjoy

 

[Mr Bond]

I empathise,but where does it end,can every fat/obese person blame Maccas, and pizza haven or whoever advertises the food equivilant of mega swill.
cigarette advertising was banned years ago ,but kids continue to take up smoking at an alarming rate.
I've met a couple of alcoholic types over the years who brew at home("cos its cheap and i can add sugar to get more alcohol").Needless to say they wer'nt overly concerned with quality and bought it all at the supermarket(evil empirical establishment).

Personal choice is where its at.I don't believe advertising,and that makes it impotent and irrelevant.
I could however keep on craft brewing with fine ingredients and high ideals ,but still end up an alchoholic :excl:

 

[PistolPatch]

(I hope I didnt write too much above but such a topic has always been of high interest to me. Also a little note regarding that post towards the end here.)

When you say, personal choice is where its at, Brauluver, (Brau is going to help me with partials!), Id like to add a couple of things.

Our society is very much conditioned into black and white thinking. Everything is either/or, 100%/0%, black/white. This is a real disease in our thinking. Couple this with our brains desperate need to find reason for things and we have an unproductive combination. Lets have a look at the smoking.

Many people who dont smoke or who have given up, will say things such as, I know a friend who smoked for 40 years and gave up in 1 day. Everyone can give up if they really want to. or, I simply chose to stop smoking.

The above statements put our brain to rest but do not really offer an accurate or productive view. A more accurate and productive view would be as follows.

A lot of people start smoking for various reasons and once they start, the vast majority do not have the ability to stop. Those that do stop often find it very difficult and often return to the habit sometimes years later.

Now we have a far more accurate description of what is really going on and we can see that it is not black and white but quite grey. The above leads though to some deeper thought which in turn enables us to develop some productive solutions. Many of these solutions will not work instantly which is another thing our western minds do not likewe want instant answers and results.

The first form of thinking saying that, everyone has personal choice, (which really internally translated says, everyone has absolute choice) leads to no solution apart from placating the individuals brain that uses that thinking strategy. It relieves that individual of personal responsibility which is another one of our Western minds favourite pastimes. (When our footy team wins we say, We won! When they lose we say, They lost!)

The second form of thinking leads to things that will reduce the number of people starting smoking and come up with ways of helping people to stop smoking. Some of these ways include less cigarette advertising, more education and plans/chemical that will assist people to give up.

At the moment, I am actually looking for someone to assist me in the building of a prototype of a device that will slowly re-educate a persons thinking over a period of several months so as they stop smoking with zero will-power which is really what is required for the majority of existing smokers. If I adopted the belief that all smokers can give up if they want to, I would have never been able to think of such a device. (By the way, any engineers or metal fabricators interested, PM mewe need the prototype!)

So once again, I think the only relevant question one can ask oneself re personal choice is, In what areas of life do I seem to have a high area of personal choice and am I using this in a productive manner? The only productive reason to question anothers level of choice is if you do so with the intention of helping them to a higher level.

This thread was started with compassion by Jagerbrau (thats two braus in this thread!) David's compassion didnt lead him to say, My mate has drunk himself to death and its his fault! Instead he has tried to find a more productive way of explaining his mates inability to choose in this area of drinking which hopefully helps some others avoid the same pitfall. He is right about the advertising but of course advertising will not explain all cases. It is not an absolute answer. But it is part of the answer. Finding and dealing with parts of answers is where most of lifes move forward comes from.

David's compassion has also lead him to try and make his mates last days more comfortable rather than shunning him. Jagerbrau could be my brau any day.

There is one other thing that has been bugging me since writing the post last night. It doesnt really offer a lot of joy for those who have lost their siblings or others through tragedy. It annoys me that I cant really do much here. All I really can do is offer to have a chat on the phone which I am happy to do. So, if you do want a chat, send me a PM and I can at least tell you how some of the people I mentioned in last nights posts were able to find some higher ground.

Well I often write my longest posts whilst, forumming under the influence, but am proud to say that this post and last nights have been written at 0.0 B.A.V. Hence, my offer on the last paragraph is totally sincere and if taken up will actually make me feel a little useful which is always s good!

And, Brauluver, Id be proud to have you as a brau as well cos you are going to teach me all about partials!

Finally, now I am going to go and taste my latest brewing attempt and I emphasise the word, attempt!

 

[Mercs Own]

PistolPatch, I respect your opinion but it doesnt wash with me. Mate there is no placating or interpreting what people really mean when they say in plain english what they think they mean - the fact is people love to blame any one else and everything else for their own failings. It is bloody hard to own up when you have let yourself down or when you have not stepped up to the goal you have set. You seem to make excuses for those who fail. The simple fact is we are responsible for our own reality - no one else. Some people can handle that and some cant. There is no room on the fence when talking about this - you make your choice and you live with it. If someone cant understand this then that is the problem not that there is some confusion regarding advertising or upbringing etc I think if more people understood that they were 100% accountable for their thoughts and their actions then the world would be a better place.

I dont get the idea that someone can give up a habit with zero will power??? That in itself seems to abdicate responsibility. I have never given up something with out will power, I also have never achieved anything with out the use of will power. Will power/ the power of positive thinking/dreams and the hard work that makes those dreams reality is what makes us what we are and fullifills our dreams and goals. I make beer because I have the will to do so not becasue I dont.

edit: spelling
Choose to make the life you want and then go for it!

 

[Kai]

Sad to hear about your mate, jager. I'm lucky enough to have not lost any friends yet.

 

[peas_and_corn]

I'm in the same boat as kai, I haven't lost anybody close to me to alcoholism, however I know its impact on people's lives. My ex (whom I dated for 3.5 years) has an alcoholic father (divorced parents), and it tears her up inside because she loves him and at the same time hates the way the alcohol is destroying him. In turn, my love for her led me to see through her eyes how this situation is, and how terribly tragic it all really is. Her father is an intelligent person who chose the wrong path and is trying to make it all better through drink- which is the completely wrong way to do it. Alcohol doesn't fix problems. It is evident he will die of it eventually, and this thread so far has helped me in regards to differing viewpoints that can be taken in times such as this- and hopefully I can help her in the same way that the other posters in this thread have given.

Sad to hear about your friend, jager, and it's good to see that you are by his side. 'A friend in need is a friend indeed', you have proven yourself to be a true friend, holding true compassion towards his suffering when it is truly needed.

Dave

 

[PistolPatch]

OK! Now I am forumming under the influence! But let's see if I can make a contribution.

I think it is brilliant that people are contributing to this thread. I am very impressed with the frankness and honesty that has been expressed.

Merc! You and I could have a great chat on the phone. We have a lot more in common than you may imagine. I come from a very big family and I have lost a few relations (I won't say here how close) and there is one more that I think I will probably lose within the next year through suicide though I think some recognition of her will hopefully avoid this. Who knows?

As you know Merc, this is not funny stuff. However, I have the greatest compassion for those who do suicide. Many say, once again as a generalisation, that it is the most selfish act one can committ. This satisfies their minds. I would say that suicide has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with desperation. I think our job is to help where we can and unfortunatley, sometimes, especially with those closest to us, we can't do anything or we simply realise too late that we could have done something. Dwelling on this is non-productive.

While many tragedies will not be prevented by us, many can be. But who will stand up and make a difference? Usually it is people who have had to deal with such tragedies. From what I have seen, often, but not always, when a person is dealt a tragedy they become more aware and more productive in society. Please excuse the word productive but I found the word necessary whilst teaching. A simple translation would be, 'love'.

You lost your brother Merc. I have lost several family members and I will, without doubt, lose a few more through suicide. While this may sound harsh, I would say honour these people. It is these people that create threads like this and discomfort like this that force us to think and create a better world.

As you have admitted above, you have chosen happiness. From what I have read, this was probably provoked somewhat by your brother's death. For those relations of mine that committed suicide, I thank them for giving me a little more respect for my own life. I wish I were a little better than I am but at least these guys more than anyone else, would know that I try my hardest to make a difference to prevent others suffering like they did.

Finally, f$u$ck explaining why people do what they do. Let's do the best we can to prevent others following in their footsteps. Whoops! Defintley forumming under the influence now!

 

[PistolPatch]

Merc! Just re-reading your post and saw the zero wil-power bit. I think I better deal with that one tomorrow! Hopefully though, whilst forumming under the influence above, I still made at least some sense. Cheers Merc!

 

[PistolPatch]

My posts here have been excessively long and possibly quite arrogant! I hope not too much so. I'm going to use all my willpower now to answer Merc on the zero willpower bit!

What I'm thinking Merc is that this thread is about helping those with little or no willpower in an area to reach greater heights or avoid an inevitable disaster. I agree with your comments on willpower and methods in the personal areas you have mentioned though. e.g. thinking consciously about your goals etc.

We do grow a lot though without any conscious application of willpower. We learn our timestables through repetition. We learned to turn off light switches by constant nagging! Some things we learned because we drew pleasure from it. Other things, like losing weight, we may have used willpower although at a deeper level, the willpower in all these situations is motivated by fear and/or reward. You brew beer because you find it rewarding. In my case, I currently brew beer because I am excited about one day brewing one that is actually drinkable!

One method of helping others out of a bad situation is to reduce the level of conscious willpower required by them personally. I'll deal with smoking in detail but also mention alcohol and exercise at the end.

I smoke and have attempted to give up many times but I lack the willpower to do this successfully. In my brain, the craving for the cigarette over-rides the logical part of my thinking that knows it is wrong to smoke. I am an absolute child in this area of my thinking.

Most smokers, including me, actually don't want to smoke but the above defeats the majority of smoker's attempts to give up. It is of no use telling us to use willpower. We simply don't have enough, if any, of it in this area!

We usually learn to smoke through repetition. I started when I was 12 to be with the in-crowd at school. The smokes tasted bloody awful at first though! And here I am 30 yrs later still doing it knowing full well all of the dangers.

So what do I do? My thinking and willpower is fine in many othere areas but here I'm stuffed.

Most learning is acheived through repetition or shock. Current giving up methods underutilise the power of repetition. As smoking is usually learned through repetition, I thought that a way of giving up successfully would be to use the same method.

I, when I work, probably smoke every 45minutes and this is done through habit. I unconsciously reach for the cigarette. What I have noticed however was that if I drop my pack from the scaffold, every time I reach for a smoke I think, 'I'll just finish this section and then climb down and get them.' I go back to my work and funnily enough the same thing occurs again. I go without a smoke for 2 hours and this has required little, probably no will-power.

What I would like to see and maybe me writing the idea here will bring about the actuality of a machine being made that holds 20 or so cigarettes but prevents the release of the cigarette immediately. Without going into any specifics, this means the smoker has to wait 2 or 3 minutes until they can access the cigarette and then access is only available for a minute or so. Like me on the scaffold, there is no immediate panic created in the mind so we can go about our business being instantly distracted away from the brief urge we have experienced.

The end result, is that after several months, we have re-educated the brain into not acting automatically in this area.

Now, if I had any willpower at all in this area, I would leave my cigarettes on the ground. But do I? No! How ridiculous is that? But as most smokers will know, most of us are that ridiculous.

With Jag's friend and others who have friends battling with alcoholism, maybe some of the same principles apply. I am not really sure about this. Perhaps someone could build a case that will not automatically release a beer can? The alcoholic is forced to wait 5 or 10 minutes without a drink therefore slowly re-educating their brain to getting used to being without a beer in their hand. I have not really ever put any detailed thought into this side. But maybe there is something in this idea that could help people like Peas's ex-father-in-law not going down the same route as Jag's friend.

One final example of reducing the willpower required to acheive a result is with exercise machines. Some are now being developed where people can play computer style games whilst exercising. Plenty more people are likely to do this than go for a run around the block.

I hope that the above explains what I meant by the zero willpower bit, Merc. Once again, I have not been brief! I really hope I haven't been boring everone to tears.

I also hope I have not been too arrogant or insensitive in my posts. Please feel absolutely free to let me know if I have been.

All the best and cheers!
PP

 

[Boozy the clown]

Ahh, PP, could you also summarise your thoughts in a 'readers digest' version?

Not that I dont appreciate your enthusiasm, but so much text, my eysa stinga me!

 

[PistolPatch]

LOL! Sorry Boozy! Don't worry mate I'm off to bed now and don't think I could possibly add too much more to this thread. Is that a collective sigh of relief I just heard?!!! :huh:

 

[poppa joe]

I was gunna say something here...But i left my smokes in the car,,
Gotta go get them....
Pj

 

[Beerpig]

PP

Try reading Allen Carr's - "Easy Way to Stop Smoking"

Debunks some of the myth about "Willpower" and others you raise

This book is in it's fourth edition and is a best seller for over 20 years

Sometimes it is all in how you look at things

Cheers

 

[Boozy the clown]

PP, I smoked a pack od Stuyvo's a day, two if I was out on the grog. I really thought i'd never be able to give up smoking, I liked it too.

Got onto those Nicabate lozenges, they work really well. I can be in a smoky pub blind drunk and still dont feel like a smoke, as long as a have a lozenge in my gob.

Just got to get off them now, its been two years...