My Thinking

[Mercs Own]

PP, thanks for your thoughts. I dont wish to sound insensitive or uncompassionate towards peoples dilemmas and situations etc But reading your post I cant help but feel you have missed the point of what I was talking about or infact a better way around it for me is that you are explaining away the lack of responsability for peoples actions.

To suggest that someone invent a machine to not allow you to get a cigerette out of the packet or make you wait for a can of beer for a certain amount of time may be a valid concept (no one is going to make it!)- but it is negating the responsibilty of the person and teaching them to turn their back on their own will power.

Our society is becoming increasingly about blame - who can I blame for my accident, my failings etc Before you know it the cigerette machine limiting the time frame of getting a cigerette will be blamed for a mass murder because it malfunctioned and the poor old smoker didnt get their fix in the alotted 7 mins and took it out on the other post office workers lingering outside waiting for the ciggy packet to cough up a cancer stick. See what I mean? Far easier to blame someone/something else than to actually take responsibility.

Personal responsibility is being eroded away by marketing, by the government, by politics and by social peer group pressure. I am teaching my kids to be responsible for their actions as well as their thoughts. (thankfully I am not teaching them to spell)

The fact is if you truely wanted to stop smoking - truely wanted to I believe you would. I believe you do have the will power to stop smoking you acutally dont want to. And that is fine. Acknowledging you actually dont want to stop means your taking responsibilty for your actions and I hope gives you back your sense of will power which you believe you dont have.

Sorry about the lecture - nothing personal - I use all this as an example of how we either empower ourselves or disempower ourselves. When we disempower our selves we become victums always looking for someone to blame for the way we have turned out and the way our lives have turned out. Empowered - we take responsibilty, we learn from our mistakes, we accept our weaknesses along with our strengths - we lead by example and we make the choice on how we want to live our lives. Infact when we truely know no one else is to blame for our lives but our self we tend to start making pretty good choices for ourselves.

Lastly I may add that suicide and mental Dis-ease is a different thing to what I am talking about. Depression etc is a disease that we dont know how to accurately treat nor really understand- as a friend once said to another friend who suffered chronic depression - your a bit down well get over it!! - Empathy and compassion are good qualities to aspire to. I am talking in regard to people who do not suffer from mental health issues.

 

[PistolPatch]

For everyone's sake Merc, this time I really am going to be brief!!!

I totally agree with you Merc and I think we probably mean the same thing. In fact, in my seminar, the major issue was, "Individual Responsibility." In other words, be as responsible as you possibly can.

Also, as you say, this advice cannot be applied to those lacking mental capacity and it is in these areas we need to find enabling techniques of assistance.

I think the only area where we may disagree is that I beleive all of us have little areas where we also are mentally or physically incapacitated such as myself mentally with smoking and let's say, the Dallai Llama physically being unable to give up meat. Hence we need to find alternative ways to deal with these inadequacies. Telling a smoker like me that I could give up if I really wanted to is like telling the depressed person to snap out of it. Neither works!

So I think we're probably pretty close to being on the same track and thanks for taking the time to write the above. It is so true that what you say about people avoiding responsibility and I could write 50 more times on that than what I've written about this! Don't worry, I won't!

Beerpig & Boozy, thanks for your suggestions and I'll follow through on these. So true what you say Beerpig about sometimes it's just the way you look at things.

PoppaJoe: Are you being naughty again! LOL! Hope all is well with you!

Thanks everyone. Thankfully and hopefully, I think that's all I have to say!

 

[jagerbrau]

it all comes down to ones own choices, no beer smoke companies do not start some one off, it is there own choice. i have never heard anyone use the excuse that, well while i wasnt looking they stuck a pint down my neck, and gee what do you know im adictated.

yes i have an issue with media portrail of smoking and drinking, seldom does it show the negative side.

i personally find it hard to have empathy for some one that started some thing by there own choices. i have worked with people addicted to herion most of my life. but even in there situation you still have to have some empathy.

when i started this stream i mixed two topics , alchool abuse and that of the mega swill giants.

i have for the last 4 years heard beer executives talk that is what leed me to a hate of the marketing of the swill.

i should of kept the two topics apart. by writing of my mates situation, i hope to open eyes (it has with in my circle of friends) and get people to realise that education is the answer. it also helps me.


i dont know if anyone has had to explain to the patiant and the familly why a liver transplant is not going to happen. sorry he did him self and there are people out there who deserve it more. its not easy. dont wish it on anyone.

just healthy discussion and to know what really goes on is the way to go.

sorry for rambles.

 

[jagerbrau]

good to hear you gave up smoking, wish i had the power to do it. i smoked once and just stoped, no will power, dont know why just did. pistol patch thanks for the good words

 

[jagerbrau]

Interesting that marketing has no exects on anything, why is coopers availiable interstate, when in 97 you would ask for it in a bar in vic that stocked it and the staff wouldnt know what it was. marketing, back then wasnt marketed interstate. when did it become a popular beer in SA about 97 when the marketing here got more.

Most companys spend more on marketing and market research than they do on research and development. i have a few friends in the marketing area and comercial art. they tell me that how it is marketed and how it looks is more important than the quality. Just look at the mega swill, spend lots on the marketing but very little on the product.

most people i know that includes people with drinking problems, have been swayed by advertising. i know a lot of of VB drinkers who can not tell it from west end, why did they start drinking VB, the old hard earned thirst, they look at westend drinkers as want to by yuppies.

most of these people say that they were influenced in the mid teen years even on beer. god i even drank west end at 14 because of the adds god knows never enjoy the stuff.

wasnt till i was 18 a mate and i went out and i said some thing to him about some imported beers. i was introduced to heinies by a dutch exchange student at the age of 11 (not a great beer but better than most local mega swill). The bar we used to go to every friday night had a range of aboout 30 to 40 imports.

we never would of drank those beers as were not advertised. if marketing doesnt influence what we buy what explains the ipod, it is successful marketing.

of all the heavy drinkers that i know they started on the heavly marketed mega swill. its not blaming the companys.

what i find funny is that more people have agree with this via PM than have not.

 

[jagerbrau]

most also add that we make our own desicions is true, im 30 to 40 kg over weight at moment, i have tended to blame circumstance and other things. went to eat some garbage food the other day and i klicked. this is not what i really want to eat. so went out and got what i wanted.

been doing this plus back excersing and have lost about 2kg and feel alot better. alot in the brain i think.

 

[Boozy the clown]

**** and booze, at least we know how they will kill us, albiet slowly and painfully (with good times inbetween)

I have recently dealt with people smoking 'Ice'. Now that stuff is fu&^$@ed up. These people have lost their mind, and have no respect for anyone, including themselves.

Dunno why i'd put this point up, guess just to say that our vices and pecadillos are not quite as damaging as some.

 

[Boozy the clown]

Oh yes, and there is no-one advertising "Ice". Its all word of mouth, I reckon its safe to say it's not even glamorised in film, even that shows how it takes a person's mind.

Can just imagine the ice smokers forum "We're just plain 'ol mad"

Just for some realism, I dealt with this Ice smoker, he had been badly cut and needed about 50 stiches and micro surgery, his main beef?
"Man, i cant find my smokes!"

 

[Screwtop]

Like Merc says, even in a state of physical addiction one is able to be responsible for ones decisions. I wanted to give up smoking about 1980 but was not prepared to own the decision as I would have then had to proceed with the coscequences. First an uncle then an aunt and then another uncle all died from lung cancer, still not enough motivation. Then my dad was next in 1985, I watched as it took 12 months to kill him. Visiting him in hospital in summer he was wearing long pyjama pants. I asked if he had shorty pyjamas to wear as they would be cooler. Dad said he did not want the others in the ward seeing his legs as they were so thin, his thighs were about 3" in diameter by then. He died on Xmas Eve. The packet of cigarettes in my pocket went in the bin, I finally had the motivation. Fine for me, mum was then diagnosed with smoking related throat cancer, underwent radical throat surgery, tracheotomy and voice prosthesis surgery. She loved to talk and tell stories, we would talk until the wee small hours, but that was all over, she really never was able to handle the speech prosthesis due to shortness of breath from emphesimia. She finally went the same way as dad and weighed just 32kg before she died. Both mum and dad had the strength to own their decisions. They both had made bad choices and wished things had turned out differently, but they blamed no-one else. Sometimes I think that if there had been more information regarding smoking related illness available years ago they just might have chosen to make the decision to quit. The deaths of loved ones due to such illnesses is certainly educating in the most graphic of ways. My decision to quit was made easy by these circumstances, but it was then that I decided that never again would I wait for such motivation before owning a decision.

 

[PistolPatch]

[EDIT: I was pretty exhausted when I wrote the following. A far more appropriate repsonse to Screwtop follows in my next post.]

Excellent post Screwtop! I won't write with as much of a response as your post deserves tonight. Immediately though, your story summarises the sadness and joy of individual responsibility, where it should be allocated and what you, the individual, can do about it. What great parents to have, Screwtop!

Looks as though they didn't allocate blame for their predicament but certainly had a desire to prevent others making, 'their,' mistake, if we can even really call it, theirs'. (I know it makes it easy for everyone to say, 'their,' but on a slower re-read of what I have written above, I think you will see why I think this is a very shallow answer.) I wish everyone was like your parents, Screwtop.

Your post has so many realistic and positive ramificiations I really want to think on it for a few days before replying properly.

Be forewarned, my next post to this thread will probably be a long one and as this thread relates to individual responsibility, any complaints on my next post should be directed soley at Screwtop!!!

Cheers
PP

P.S. Have been a little short of time in past few days but have kept a very quick eye on this thread. Just like to say, Jag and Boozy, good on you for dealing with the drug addicts etc. I pride myself on my tolerance levels yet would find myself totally bewildered and non-compassionate within 2 seconds of doing your jobs!

P.P.S. Jag. Interesting comment about the PM's. This is simply because the excellent topic you raised is such a grey area. No one is trained in how to deal with grey areas. I taught on how to deal with with this stuff for 14 years and I still felt awkward posting my long-winded posts here! I can and have dealt with this stuff verbally yet have no experience in writing on such areas so I have no idea whether people can, 'hear,' what I write. In fact, I felt a lot awkward until getting a great PM from you!

Hey Jag! I just thought that you're getting PM's on this and I'm getting bugger all! I think I just lost all my confidence!

You have started a great thread though Jag. I'm guessing here that it may actually continue for some time as there are so many people on this site and, at varying stages in our lives, what has been written above will be more relevant.

I love my beer. I love cracking jokes. Threads like this though challenge me to really think! Good on you Jag!

And the above was just a quick note!!!! Sorry guys! I do actually consciously, try really hard to be brief!

 

[PistolPatch]

I think I was actually punch drunk with exhaustion when I wrote the post above. There won't be a long-winded response from me Screwtop. Instead, and far more appropriately, I would simply like to say thank you.

Your post whilst extremely sad also radiates a beauty which I imagine is your parent's light shining through you.

I think you may have even given me some motivation to stop smoking using existing methods available instead of using my current excuse to wait until I develop my own.

Thank you Screwtop.
PP

 

[PistolPatch]

I must say that this thread is way overdue for a bump.

If you take the time to read it, you'll actually see some of the most important stuff you will ever read on AHB.

You will also see the motivation behind one or two loveable characters on AHB.

I've always had it in the back of my mind to re-visit this thread but until now, I've never needed to.

I've done so tonight due to a kindness I was shown here in Perth by DoogieChap who has gone several thousand miles out of his way to welcome me here in Perth. This is a rare quality in any state.

I'm damn glad I did have a look back here because I know that he will love this thread.

He'll love it as no one could possibly disagree that more than any other thread I have ever seen on AHB, this thread makes people think about important stuff.

I can't believe that only a year ago I actually had the guts to post the following. Pretty sure I did this one sober too - lol! Since then I have made several life-long friends on AHB - people I totally trust and am at ease with. It just goes to show...

Here's the bump* - Whoops! Looks like my forthright manner hasn't changed a bit!.....

"There's a lot of interesting thoughts above and my best wishes go to those of you who have or are experiencing a loss of someone close to you. I think most of us can relate to the above and would have experienced some of it.

I also think some interesting observations have been made above on choice and happiness. Like the beer advertising, I believe that the New Age has lead to some false perceptions of choice and happiness.

For 14 years I taught seminars on advanced thinking. One of the major areas I addressed was the concept of free will. The New Age movement actively promotes the fallacy that people have total choice or free will.

As Screwtop mentioned above, people experiencing depression etc., have far lower levels of healthy choice than the next person. I have taught people who have had a sibling killed by serial killers (the Perth people will remember the Birnies), a young woman who had her children shot and her leg shot off by her husband, right through to an extraordinary case where one bloke had had 1 father and 5 stepfathers! Interestingly enough, the above cases now have a lot greater abilities in making choices for happiness than they did previously. Whilst they have higher levels of free will than most, they still don't have total free will.

I believe that some of us have, through luck or whatever, been given a little more choice than others. A ******** person will generally have lesser choices than a person with an average IQ and if you've just broken up with your partner, you're generally not able to choose as wisely as at other times especially if you're like me!

I used to ask participants in my seminar why they were so lucky to be sitting there instead of living on the streets. Most people would say they made the right choices which to me is totally irrelevant and I believe incorrect. Who knows why some have more choice than others? Did ******** people choose the wrong parents? Did the person with cancer choose to have that disease? Some New Agers will say, 'Yes.' A shallow and unproductive way of thought when applied in this manner.

As I just said, finding a reason as to why you may have a higher ability to choose than others is irrelevant. If you do have average or above average levels of being able to consciously make beneficial choices I think it is far better off asking the questions, 'What am I doing with my level of choice?' and 'What can I do to be of service to those experiencing lower levels of choice?' These to me are the only relevant questions.

Asking these two questions leads to productive outcomes such as better education as mentioned above which in turn leads to a general rise in happiness.

Some people will always be ahead of us in certain areas and maybe a little behind us in some areas. I have some very advanced skills in certain areas and am child-like in others. Often I am able to use my more advanced skills to shine a little joy in some dark places of an individual or simply lift the general level of happiness in a group. THis in turn increases my level of happiness.

Knowing also that I am only a child in many areas helps me minimise, to some extent, some of my stupidity and when I do actually exhibit stupidity I can groan at myself, then have a laugh and hopefully learn a little. This results in a slighlty quicker return to productivity and happiness.

When I see others battling with a difficulty, I see them as a child in that area. Helping a child who is struggling to grow is fun and rewarding. Expecting everyone to always act like adults and make correct choices constantly is unrealistic and personally unsatisfying.

Compassion is a very enabling thinking skill which leads to very valuable thinking tools. Education in the areas Screwtop mentioned above is a great example of the tool. Screwtop mentioning this reveals compassion which I believe we can all never have enough of. When used correctly it lightens us instead of weighing us down. It can even actually bring us joy when faced with some of the terrible things mentioned above or in the situations where we are unfortunatley unable to teach or help an adult 'child'.

I think that whilst there are many things we will never understand there are still many more things we can actually do.

Best wishes all."

* Agh! I could write for hours on this - you know who you are! Annoys me but that I can't mention each and every person on AHB that has made a huge difference to me.

 

[PistolPatch]

Whoops! Forgot to mention one thing...

And one day, I'm going to sit down and write down all the names of the guys that helped me out and I can still see helping others out. Funnily enough, a lot of them contributed to this thread!

Agh! I'm tired again and a little worn-out...

But you get that from time to time.

Anyway, for tonight, that's my thinking!

Pat

 

[therook]

Pete,

You keep coming up with the goods, another great post.

Your right, there are some friendly helpful people on this Forum, they know who they are, we know who they are and thats all that matters.

You have probably done more for the newbie with some of your Threads so from a newbie to AG....thank you

Your last post will have me thinking about many things for the rest of the day



Rook

 

[PistolPatch]

Good on ya Rook!

This is scary stuff posting from the West Coast. You wake up and find that everyone on the east coast has read your posts before your morning edits!

I was going to delete both of the above but too late now. I actually have deleted most of the second one as it wasn't really accurate at all - just ramblings!

It's a very interesting thread though eh?

Thanks a heap for the PM mate. Really appreciate that,
Pat

P.S. I think I need two things to keep me in line - a wife and light beer!!!

P.P.S. Uh oh! Just had another glance at that first post - about half of that could go too but I have to go to work immediately. Whoops! Anyway Rook, the fact that someone like you liked it makes me more than happy

 

[Screwtop]

Must be the time of year Patch! You're waxing all Deep and Meaningfull again

Like most I've experienced a few setbacks in life, and made plenty of decisions that weren't the best. In business if only 50% of the decisions I made in a day turned out to be bad decisions I was doing ok. Look back over your life and think about how many bad decisions you've made. Concentrate on the really bad ones and I'll bet you can't remember that many. Most people have trouble remembering more than six really bad decisions they've made. At first you think you'll remember heaps, but when it comes down to the really, really bad ones, it's not so many. Sometimes it's not the decision that's bad, but the maintainance/support of the decision. More a series of decisions made because the first decision supports making many more decisions in an unconcious manner. Such as taking up smoking, is that a bad decision, probably not. Is continuing to smoke a bad decision, probably yes, is allowing the habit to grow to 60 a day a good decision probably not, but is the decision made conciously each time you light up. A bit like Patch writing long posts, he starts out with good intentions but quite unconciously continues to write until he's used up his entire Mb limit for the month in one post

Something a person said to me when I was about 10 years old stuck with me and has been a yardstick in my life. "ya know boy, lots of things in life seem hard, till you've done em", a stern old bugger he was, but he sure had a handle on life. As for AG brewing or anything else you take on, remember that!

The early part of my life was spent in an orphanage, I have no regrets or wishes that things were different, decisions surrounding that part of my life were made by others. When you're able to make your own decisions make one important one first. Surround yourself with good souls and positive friends, it makes the bad decisions easier to handle!

Deciding to begin AG brewing has been a positive one for me, have met some terrific people, many of them I see as absolute masters of the craft (my favorite speech topic). The beers many of these brewers turn out are so good, and yet they strive for improvement, even brewing outside of the square with amazing results, they are inspiring positive people.

On ya Patch! now, no more of this crap again until next year, do you find Autumn depressing or something

Screwy

 

[domonsura]

Wow. This is a thread and a half.
I'd like to agree with most of the things that have been said here. You have to get every morning and take it as it comes, smile anyway when something doesn't go your way, and thank your lucky stars when it does.
Since I was a kid I've always been one of these people who 'if it can go wrong, it will', but on the same token, always been the one lucky enough to walk away with a second chance and the opportunity to reflect on what it was that I did wrong.
I've only ever been blessed with a small circle of friends (probably due to my abrasive personality), and over the years I've seen every single one of the originals leave us, due to motorbike accidents, drug overdoses, alcoholism and the big C. It's been hard to stand beside so many holes in the ground and look mothers, fathers, wives and children in the eye and try to help them see anything positive in what's happened. At times I've felt like a professional funeral goer, I've even been asked if I was employed by the funeral parlour by one person. :blink:
I'm not a religious person because to me religion and politics are too closely intertwined, but all I've ever been able to say to them is, "Get up in the morning, and thank whoever you thank that you've been blessed with some more sunshine and the chance to live it right."
Personally I've also had far too many opportunities to take my own advice, and have spent more than my fair share of time inside intensive care facilities through motorbike accidents, a serious housefire that should have killed me (3rd degree burns to 50% of me), and other 'incidents' while young and dumb. Divorce at 19, death of a partner and child at 21, you name it, at times I've felt like a crash test dummy for life in general.
Just last weekend, I had a great evening at the Wheatsheaf seeing Kai off, and met a bunch a great characters in the flesh, the first opportunity I'd had to meet most of them. What an awesome bunch of blokes I tell ya, had quite a bit too much to drink, and felt bloody shocking in the morning with a combined hangover, and the beginnings of the flu bug that has laid my household low for the last week, yesterday morning saw me off to the doctors to try reel the bug in before it got too bad, and left the surgery with a little bit of bad news that life is about to get a bit complicated at the age of 34. Bit of a shock, and no more beer for a 'while'. But **** happens doesn't it.
But my point is, I woke up this morning. I'll wake up tomorrow. Some days will be good and others not so good. We carry on, we kiss our wives and kids and smile, we remember the good people we've known in the past and feel lucky for the good ones we know now. Because this is life, it may be short but it's what we make it.
May as well make it smile

 

[Fents]

But my point is, I woke up this morning. I'll wake up tomorrow. Some days will be good and others not so good. We carry on, we kiss our wives and kids and smile, we remember the good people we've known in the past and feel lucky for the good ones we know now. Because this is life, it may be short but it's what we make it.
May as well make it smile

:beerbang: That is quite possibly the best thing i may ever read. Biggups!

 

[chimera]

Slightly to the left - maybe.
One of the saddest things I've ever seen was groups of my mates getting heavily involved in the drug scene. Some of them played at the edges, others dived in head first. At first it seemed like nothing, but before long all weekend dance parties, raves, became the norm. If you ever want a reason for not taking drugs I could relate stories about friends i'd known for half a dozen years or more, gone to school, university, spent years of our lives going to pubs week in week out looking at you through glazed eyes and not recognising you.

Getting calls from other mates at 3am asking if you can come down and help take a friend home. Having to try to convince them to get into the car when they are more interested in talking to a downpipe, having to watch them for 12 hour straight cos they are convinced they have been abducted and trying to escape from their own house. Watching as some people show concern and try to help their friend, watching as numerous other 'mates' who should be concerned just aren't.

And despite the trouble you can feel nothing but gut wrenching sorrow for them as you watch them struggle for months to get their mind back. Watch as long term relationships crack up, job opportunities vanish, people that used to be open and friendly become suspicious and guarded. People you used to see almost daily take months to finally come up to you and say sorry, and then disappear over the social horizon.

Addiction & compulsion are strange things, I believe some people are definitely more at risk to it, whereas some can turn it off and walk away others cannot. I quit smoking some time back and am glad to be rid of it. Since quitting i have taken to smoking on the annual end of season trips away and bathurst weekends, but it's an old habit i indulge once or twice a year. I also have found myself recently cracking another longneck from the fridge around the time I know I should be knocking off for bed. The old man is a compulsive drinker who once started will drink to oblivion, I suppose the bug is there for me too.

 

[Fents]

Being a retired DJ i know all too well about drugs and friends, but its the same with anything isnt it? Some people eat food, some people drink, some people smoke....

My mums an alcoholic. My childhood was surronded by her alcholism. I've learnt first hand where to draw the line.

Addictions are weird as you said some people can walk away, others cant.