My New Tap And Foaming Troubles, Can Anyone Give Me Advice?

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Stoodoo

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I recently installed a new celli tap (my precious) on my fridge the other day and am having foaming problems galore when trying to pour myself a beer. If I'm lucky I may get 1/3 of a glass of beer and 2/3 foam (if I'm lucky). Here's some figures that may or may not help you to help me out: Beer temp is ~ 3.5c, Co2 pressure is ~11psi - I'm hoping for around 2.5-2.6 volumes Co2, with a length of ~3 feet 8 1/2" of cobraplus beer line connected to the tap which is placed ~1 1/2 feet above the centre of the keg. As has been suggested, I tried using a short length of tubing for this tap, but the problem was even worse. Any suggestions before I give up on this system and end up selling my keg setup????? For you other guys that have the celli tap installed, what temps/pressures and line length are you guys using successfully? I am a total newb when it comes to tap setups :blink:

Cheers :)
 
The answer to 90% of keg problems is:-

You are over gassed!

Set the reg for about half the pressure you are on now ~35 kPa (5psi if you have to work in old money),
Keep venting off gas until it is pouring well., if the beer starts to get a bit flat up the pressure a bit, less than 5 kPa, give it a couple of days to settle in.

As a quick test put some water in a keg, it should take 4-5 seconds to fill a schooner.

MHB
 
Just checking....

but you are opening the tap fast and full when your pour the beer right?

Done that and just about everything else, flow adjustment at full, slowly dropping the flow rate to nil, and also the other way around. There seem to be "pulses" of bubbles at first, then the flow turns into straight foam.
 
MHB, I'll give your suggestion a try. Fingers crossed it works. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers :)
 
Stoodoo,

certainly sounds like you've way over carbonated the beer - what method did you use to carbonate it?

Disconnect the keg & give it a little shake, then vent off CO2 through the relief valve, leave the valve open over night & try pouring again tomorrow, if still over carbonated, repeat process.

cheers Ross
 
Ross, yes, I may have overcarbonated my beer, not quite sure. This beer is a triple decocted pilsener which had a 4hr boil. I kegged it 6 months ago and am hoping I don't have to give the keg a shake as it hasn't been filtered and I'm a little scared that I may end up stirring the trub/yeast bed on the bottom of the keg if I do shake it a bit. If I have no choice then I'll shake it, though I'd like to get away without having to. I am a little curious as to what temps/pressures and line lengths you guys use on your keg/tap setups, would you mind divulging your secrets/figures. I guess my worry is that I end up having to serve flat beer(unfounded worry?), though like I said me = noob. Oh and Ross, I can't tell you how much I love the celli tap....words can't describe its' beauty (I just had to buy a second one to even things out on the fridge ;) ).

Cheers :)
 
Yup you are overgassed. If you are reluctant to shake if you take the keg out and let it warm to room temp while letting gas out it should lose a lot of carb. Then put it back in the fridge and let it chill down. Put the gast on at your desired pressure and test the carbonation. If it is too low it will take a few days to a week to gas up to the pressure you have on it.

I have about 2ft of beerline with inline restrictors which I believe the tap you have has built into it. Things I do to get consistant gassing:
1) Try to get a uniform fridge temp as much as possible.
2) I let the kegs gas at pouring pressure (1-2wks) so there is no chance of overcarbonation.

Good luck
 
Yeah we call it "Soft Gassing"; on all but the base model keg systems we include an extra T and Gas Disconnect, get the pouring pressure right and let the carbonation look after it self.

Frankly this is self defence; using this method we get very few phone calls about problem pours - and have a lot of happy first time kegers.

You have the keg you're drinking from and another one at pouring pressure gassing to perfection; usually it takes 7-10 days to balance up.

I like the internal venting on the Micromatic regulator, if a keg has picked up a bit of overpressure from some unfermented sugar, or if you have primed the keg, it will let out any excess - without you having to make any adjustments.

A tip
If you have primed the keg; let it cool down overnight before you connect to the gas - otherwise the high pressure in a warm keg will send foam up the line and could screw your reg. It's always a good idea to burp the keg just before you connect to it, regs cost so be careful.

If you add a second tap, add another gas point and so on, I have one customer with about 11 kegs and taps all running of 1 reg; too easy.

Another often overlooked point is that the temperature is another way to control the carbonation. Get the pour right and fine tune the temp to get exactly the fizz you are looking for.
Colder - More fizz
Warmer - Mess fizz

Like is said too easy.

MHB
 
Try this, i found on another site. i have the same problem and will try when i get home

1. Set regulator at 230kPa (33 psi). One could go up to 320kPa (46 psi) if
necessary
2. Open beer flow adjuster (on the side of the tap) to maximum
3. Open beer tap to its maximum into a bucket.
4. Close flow adjuster slowly, until clear beer flows. Leave at that
setting!
5. I have found it works every time. Maestro Moritz!
6. After your drinking session, turn off the CO2 or reduce the pressure to
the desired carbonation level, otherwise you will put more CO2 into
suspension than required

jeddog
 
Try this, i found on another site. i have the same problem and will try when i get home

1. Set regulator at 230kPa (33 psi). One could go up to 320kPa (46 psi) if
necessary
2. Open beer flow adjuster (on the side of the tap) to maximum
3. Open beer tap to its maximum into a bucket.
4. Close flow adjuster slowly, until clear beer flows. Leave at that
setting!
5. I have found it works every time. Maestro Moritz!
6. After your drinking session, turn off the CO2 or reduce the pressure to
the desired carbonation level, otherwise you will put more CO2 into
suspension than required

jeddog

Jeddog, that certainly is a quick fix to pour an over carbonted beer & does work, but I'd be more inclined to get the carbonation level correct. If desperate for a beer though, go for it - I've got a customer pouring his highly carbonated ginger beer at approx 250kpa through a Celli & he's rapped he can now pour this perfectly, whereas before on his old system, it just poured foam.

cheers Ross
 
The answer to 90% of keg problems is:-

You are over gassed!

Set the reg for about half the pressure you are on now ~35 kPa (5psi if you have to work in old money),
Keep venting off gas until it is pouring well., if the beer starts to get a bit flat up the pressure a bit, less than 5 kPa, give it a couple of days to settle in.

Totally agree. I had the same problem with my kegs to start with. All of the literature that came with them said to pour at about 100 Kpa but I was throwing 3/4 of it away. I gradually turned down the pour pressure to about 30-40 Kpa and it's perfect now.
 
Stoodoo, the temp and pressure you state seem about right for the carb level you are after.

I have a couple of questions:

1. How did you initially carbonate it?
2. Were you previously using another tap with no problems, or is this a completely new system?
3. Is the tap mounted straight through the door or in a font?

I agree with the others who have said it sounds like your keg is over-carbonated.

It's worth mentioning though, that if the beer in the last bit of line can warm up, that will often cause foaming problems. Try and insulate the tap from the fridge as much as possible (eg, use rubber washers) - otherwise the cold beer is being warmed by the thermal mass of the tap itself AND the fridge exterior. If you can insulate it then the cold beer only has to try and chill the tap on its way through. Another way to look at this is that if you have good thermal conductivity between the interior of the fridge and the exterior, then the poor old fridge has to work harder as it is trying to chill the exterior panel of the fridge and the air around that too. This way there will always be a larger temp gradient than if the tap is isolated.

Draught systems are a very zen experience, there is no substitute for time to let everything equalise. The basic idea of a balanced system is to sort out your temperature first, then your carbonation levels (ie pressure), then tweak the resistance in the lines to regulate the pour to a comfortable speed. If you don't have adjustable restrictors, the easiest way to do this is to start off with lines that are too long, then shorten them a bit at a time to increase the flow rate until you are happy.

In my converted chest freezer I use about a metre of 4mm ID beer line (it's a prick to get onto QD barbs but it can be done - and the thinner line gives a nice even resistance). I tend to just run a 'house' pressure of ~80kpa (~12psi) at ~5C, and I get a perfect pour with no foaming - and that's just with old swing-top pub taps, nothing special. FWIW, my taps are level with the tops of the kegs.

I generally force carb after kegging at about 300kpa (22psi) and rock for about 30sec, just to get a tiny bit of sparkle into the beer so I can try it immediately. Then I vent the excess pressure, hook up the lines and let it gently come up to full carbonation itself, it takes probably 3 days or so to do this. It doesn't stop me drinking it in the meantime, but I try to stick to the beers that have already balanced.

(edit: tidy up)
 
Draught systems are a very zen experience, there is no substitute for time to let everything equalise.

Bingo! Carbonate and dispense at equal pressures and you'll never have a problem. If it's slightly overcarbed just freeze your glasses before pouring. Works well enough.

Like WG said. It's a zen experience and you've just got to get time to aquaint yourself with it. :)

Warren -
 
generally force carb after kegging at about 300kpa (22psi) and rock for about 30sec, just to get a tiny bit of sparkle into the beer so I can try it immediately. Then I vent the excess pressure, hook up the lines and let it gently come up to full carbonation itself, it takes probably 3 days or so to do this. It doesn't stop me drinking it in the meantime, but I try to stick to the beers that have already balanced.

That's almost exactly how I do it too.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. Wortgames, I initially carbed my beer by using the Ross method, though that was 6 months ago. I then decided I'd let the beer mature for 6 months before I'd try it. I couldn't quite wait that long and tried one glass of it in late October and another glass of it in November. I poured it using my Pluto gun with the beer only slightly overfizzed - but pourable. The system I have now is brand new - well the celli tap is anyway. The tap is mounted to the fridge door, with the s/s shank extending out from the front of the door. After reading how Pumpy mounted his celli's, I think I'll do the same to mine (received my secong Celli tap today - cheers to Ross and Josh). I released all the pressure from the keg last night and reconnected the keg up this evening at pouring pressure ~11psi. It is definitely pouring with less foaming, but looks like it will need more time sitting in the keg with a lower co2 pressure. I'll see how it goes tommorow. Oh and thanks also Wortgames for your info on your working temps/pressures etc.

Christmas cheer to all :)
 
It would seem that a pattern is emerging - there are quite a few people having problems with foaming - with the control on the celli there shouldnt be a problem with overgassing ! - at least not if you're anywhere near the right pressure!
Bingo! Carbonate and dispense at equal pressures and you'll never have a problem.
Thats true, but the celli is supposed to evercome that problem with it's control - At 100 kpa there shouldnt be any trouble at all!
beer temp is ~ 3.5c, Co2 pressure is ~11psi - I'm hoping for around 2.5-2.6 volumes Co2, with a length of ~3 feet 8 1/2" of cobraplus beer line
Like I said, at that pressure and with the celli's control there should'nt be a problem!
As long as the line and shank are cold I cant see why there is foaming - unless everyone thats having foamiing issues also have installed the "Female Twin Adaptor - Thread 3/8 x Tube OD 8mm"?? If so then maybe thats the problem??
Sh*t i hope not , I just ordered two cellis and two adaptors myself :angry:

Breaky
 
Try this, i found on another site. i have the same problem and will try when i get home

1. Set regulator at 230kPa (33 psi). One could go up to 320kPa (46 psi) if
necessary
2. Open beer flow adjuster (on the side of the tap) to maximum
3. Open beer tap to its maximum into a bucket.
4. Close flow adjuster slowly, until clear beer flows. Leave at that
setting!
5. I have found it works every time. Maestro Moritz!
6. After your drinking session, turn off the CO2 or reduce the pressure to
the desired carbonation level, otherwise you will put more CO2 into
suspension than required

jeddog

This trick didn't work for me. Although I can't be sure what my serving pressure is. My regulator gauge reads in litres per minute.

Scott
 

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