My Mates Want To Pay For Me To Make Beer For Them

[bignath]

Hi all,

had a couple of friends ask me if i would be interested in supplying them beer. They brought up the question of price and costings etc. and i suggested maybe just paying for ingredients plus maybe 5 or 10 bucks for my troubles...

If it's possible to do (legally), i have suggested they go and buy a few boxes of beer and keep the bottles. Give the bottles to me and i'll put beer back in them.

My question - Is this illegal to supply two Adults (with no minors at home) beer if they want me to brew it for them and pay me for the process.

I must stress, i am in no way looking to make a profit from this, but if they want to pay for the ingredients i may consider it. Only would be looking to recoup the cost of my grains, hops, and yeasts. Both of these people make some serious money in their jobs, so it's not like they are trying to save money and get pissed on the cheap. I invited them around for a brewday recently, and they now have a keen interest in the process and generally like my beers better than most commercial brews.

Any help with this would be awesome as i have no idea where i stand from a law perspective.

cheers,

Nath

 

[felten]

It's illegal to sell alcohol, but not share it with your mates (if they're above the drinking age ). I'm no lawyer but if they're only paying for ingredients then I don't see how you can get into trouble for it, plus if its just for your mates who is going to find out anyway?

Do you need a liquor license to see fresh wort kits? selling sugary water can't be illegal if they want to ferment it themselves.

 

[Josh]

I don't have any idea about the law

But I don't think it's a bad thing if your mates want to pay for the ingredients, then come round and help out with brew day. Then take some home a few weeks later. Personally, I couldn't take any extra on top of ingredients and inputs such as gas. I'd just skim a few bottles off the top for R&D.

 

[Charst]

I cant see any drama with it, its your mates after all. but if you willing to spend an 6-8 hour day brewing beer to get about a 6 pack for your efforts your a better bloke than me. If it was me i'd be saying Hey boys im making a ...... this week when it's done if you want a slab it's $20 - $25. That'll cover 75% of the ingredients (depending on style) and you still get a slab for you efforts.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Buying you ingredients - fine. But if i were you, given that you have just announced it in a very public way - i would not take any money "for your trouble" - and i would suggest that the safe course would be for the ingredients to either arrived at your house already purchased, or perhaps in the form of a not redeemable for cash gift voucher for your LHBS.

You might be good regardless, but then again the excise and lisencing people can be touchy - and any money at all changing hands for what is supposed to be an entirely non commercial hobby - is asking for trouble.

 

[Effect]

Sell them wort, they physically pitch the yeast and then you bottle it for them. If you do everything to make the beer and make them pay for just the ingredients I'm pretty sure it is still considered selling alcohol.

So as far as the tax man knows, you sell fresh wort and offer a place for your customers to ferment said wort as well as a bottleing service ala 'u brew it' and 'brew by u'

 

[Amber Fluid]

Why don't you give them the beer but sell them the bottles

I am sure you will work something out. Not as if anyone is going to knock on your door and jail you for selling a minimal amount of beer for virtually no profit.

What is the difference if someone asked you to go to the pub to get a carton and they pay you back next week?.... you bought the carton now you are going to resell it to them (albeit the same price) to get your money back.

Doing this for only a couple of friends won't hurt imo. However, I am not in the know of the legalities of this situation.

Oh another way around would be to give them the beer and they give you vouchers from LHBS. That way you can get your own ingredients as and when you want.

 

[manticle]

Teach them how to brew and get them to do it for themselves.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Sell them wort, they physically pitch the yeast and then you bottle it for them. If you do everything to make the beer and make them pay for just the ingredients I'm pretty sure it is still considered selling alcohol.

So as far as the tax man knows, you sell fresh wort and offer a place for your customers to ferment said wort as well as a bottleing service ala 'u brew it' and 'brew by u'

And the u brew it guys need a license and they pay excise - the tax man gets very very annoyed when he doesn't get his cut.

There is nothing wrong or immoral about this idea - its just the fact that there actually is a small chance that someone will knock on his door and throw the book at him - dont count on the fact that the is "virtually no profit" involved... You need a license and you need to pay excise - if you want to give beer away.

Dont look to closely at the technicalities of having mates over to your place to help you drink your homebrew, or taking it to someone elses place and sharing it with them... You might find some grey areas you dont like the look of all that much. You throw so much as a single dollar of cash into those grey areas - and they go a nasty shade of black.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Mate your opening a can of worms brewing for the boys, hope they aren't heavy drinkers

Any money changing hands (except for ingredients) sounds like it could bring you trouble, like others have pointed out maybe they just come over for the brew day or even just do the clean up :beerbang: for their beer.

 

[wabster]

You can be making a rod for your own back if these guys blab to others about getting cheap beer, or even if they get used to accessing cheaper but quality beer. I found when I brewed back in the 80's that most mates couldn't give a toss about how much time, care and ingredients you used, just the outcome that they could guzzle. If they aren't interested in learning to brew over time then they are just after a cheap(er) piss up. Maybe do a few brews where they contribute ingredients, with extras for your personal use later, and they must help on brewdays and show a sign they are willing to take up brewing themselves by buying kit and bottles. Otherwise wind it down with them or it will get out of control, then when you pull the pin you'll be the worst ******* in the world. Just the voice of experience, Cheerz Wabster.

 

[Nick JD]

Don't give them the fish - give them the rod and show them where the beach is!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Wab raises another good point - legality aside, are you happy to be taken advantage of?? It all fun and good for the first half dozen batches - but then maybe you actually dont feel like doing it one day and want to be paid for what your work was actually worth.

Ingredients - say $20 once you include grain, hops and yeast
Gas for your burner - probably about $5 per brew
Brew day - 5 hours of brewing and cleaning @ minimum wage is $75
Ferment, clean, test, bottle etc - another 3 hours worth of your time in bits and bobs $45
Wear and tear on equipment, ferment fridge and your house and fittings - say $5 a brew

$150 a batch... And thats you working for minimum wage, no extra profit at all. You make more by getting a part time job at Maccas

So - unless your mates are willing to pay you $150 a batch - they are expecting you to work hard for the priviledge of subsidising their beer consumption, while taking a risk of getting in legal trouble for doing so. You'll get sick of that pretty damn quickly.

 

[proudscum]

Yep teach em to brew so they see the work involved from start to finish.

If i charged for the time spent on a brew it would cost $500-$600 for 2 and a 1/2 slabs...hmmmm sounds like cheap beer to me.

I would cube the wort and get them to ferment it in their own fermenters at there own place.
Means you get to practice the art of wort production and your mates get to make good beer and learn a new skill.
That way you are not producing or selling alcohol.

Personally though i wouldnt tie myself to this mill stone,i would send them to Grape and grain or who ever your local brew shop is and get them started on cans or fresh wort kits.

no affiliation blah blah just used fresh kits from G+G in brewery down time.

 

[proudscum]

Don't give them the fish - give them the rod and show them where the beach is!

+1

 

[mh971]

More importantly you stand to turn a pleasurable passtime and hobby into work and potentially lose your enjoyment of it. Hard to put a price on that.

If you're worried about the legality of situations like this it already sounds like the fun is waning.

If something is technically illegal (even though it may be morally robust) and you're still going to do it you need to make some serious money or fun from it to justify the risk. From posts above it's probably less risky to grow hops closest cousin for your mates, at least you wont be up for tax evasion and back payment of exise if it all turns to poo.

 

[DJR]

Go bigger, do triple batches, cube the wort and tell em to go buy a fermenter/yeast/bottles and it's done - then they can lend a hand doing it as well.

Being someone's beer slave is never worth it.

There is shops that exist exactly for this purpose - they are called bottle-o's

 

[michael_aussie]

I cant see any drama with it, its your mates after all. but if you willing to spend an 6-8 hour day brewing beer to get about a 6 pack for your efforts your a better bloke than me. If it was me i'd be saying Hey boys im making a ...... this week when it's done if you want a slab it's $20 - $25. That'll cover 75% of the ingredients (depending on style) and you still get a slab for you efforts.

+1

Wab raises another good point - legality aside, are you happy to be taken advantage of?? It all fun and good for the first half dozen batches - but then maybe you actually dont feel like doing it one day and want to be paid for what your work was actually worth.

Ingredients - say $20 once you include grain, hops and yeast
Gas for your burner - probably about $5 per brew
Brew day - 5 hours of brewing and cleaning @ minimum wage is $75
Ferment, clean, test, bottle etc - another 3 hours worth of your time in bits and bobs $45
Wear and tear on equipment, ferment fridge and your house and fittings - say $5 a brew

$150 a batch... And thats you working for minimum wage, no extra profit at all. You make more by getting a part time job at Maccas

So - unless your mates are willing to pay you $150 a batch - they are expecting you to work hard for the priviledge of subsidising their beer consumption, while taking a risk of getting in legal trouble for doing so. You'll get sick of that pretty damn quickly.

+1

 

[Kleiny]

Both of these people make some serious money in their jobs,

Get them to finance your new brewing venture and they as owners can have as much beer as they need from your new micro brewery.

 

[drew9242]

I love having mates around or anyone for that matter come round on a brew day. I can teach them and we can enjoy a few pints of beer or more. But i wouldn't be making them 2 cartons for them to take home on a regular basis. I would burn myself out and brewing wouldn't be my hobby anymore. Plus the money you invested into all your gear, who pays for that. If they were keen i would get them to buy some gear and then teach them everything you know (which is worth more then cheap beer).

Even if you werent selling beer but just the wort. And you were making a profit, that makes you a business and you have to pay for you taxes.

Make them a couple batches and teach them what to do, but keeping up with 2 guys and yourself demand on beer. Well i know i would burn myself out, escpecially if they come round for half an hour pick up their slabs pay you the money and walk of. They wouldn't be me mates for too much longer.