My Cider Smells Like Farts...

[mwd]

The sulphites must be combining with something to produce a bit of Hydrogen Sulphide gas Manticle

And to TB what you call a decent amount of H2S or fart gas is actually in minute quantities if you can smell it. H2S is highly toxic in high concentrations but the human senses are easily tricked by a tiny bit of odour.
H2S is heavier than air but bubbling CO2 should drive it off.
Just the slightest wiff is enough to put most people off and also effect the perception of taste. If it smells good we expect it to taste good and vice versa.

Kids stink bombs contain H2S.

H2S concentrations for toxicity NOTE the Parts per million

 

[Muggus]

I had a similiar thing to a cider I made with fresh no-added anything Cloudy Apple Juice and Champagne yeast (red star i think).
Smelled sulfury after a few days fermentation, and hung around in the bottle for a few months. Smell disappeared after 3-5 months and the cider itself became a bit less funky. Actually after a year, it was very smooth indeed...if you're willing to wait that long!

 

[Bribie G]

Off topic for cider but H2S is produced by many lager yeasts and is, in very small concentrations, an integral part of the 'whiff' you get off a Euro lager when you pop the top of a bottle and that initial burst hits your nose. I brewed two absolutely identical lagers using W 34/70 and Mauribrew lager (that doesn't give off sulphur). The Mauri tastes a bit dead, although clean but when I open a bottle made with the German yeast, it smells like a Euro lager should. I had always assumed that that lovely aroma hit was just the hops but the sulphur clearly comes into it.

With cider I would imagine that a good long fermentation should burp most of it off.

 

[manticle]

The sulphites must be combining with something to produce a bit of Hydrogen Sulphide gas Manticle

Maybe. Small amount of personal experience as opposed to any real knowledge on my behalf.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

has to be yeast derived .. the juice was S02 free (I made sure) and I didn't add any sulphur. The only thing I added was Wyeast yeast nutrient and the redstar yeast .. which muggus said gave him farty smells too. So I'm guessing that.

I theifed a sample and played a bit pouring from glass to glass - H2S smell reduced rather quickly, so I reckon the C02 trick should get it most of the way to good again.

Apart from the smell - nice cider, good acid, bone dry. Not much complexity and light on the apple aroma and flavour. A little added sugar .. and apple taste came back - a little added fresh juice and it was lovely with apple aroma and flavour.

So - apart from the sulphur. I have what I want. A decent, good tasting base cider, to stabilise and layer back in the flavours and aromas I want. Bizarrely for a brewer .. what I think I want the most is a little diacetyl and some autolysis. Maybe a malolactic fermentation and a bit of aging on lees??

 

[HoppingMad]

TB, if you're wanting the autolytic flavours you would get similar to those found in champagne you will need to age quite a while on the lees.
Saison beers do this a bit I believe too but not as long as champagne. Here's an excerpt relating to Champers, dunno how you'd go with cider.

Good luck!

Hopper.

Autolytic flavours:

Characters to look for are biscuity, brioche aromas and the much-desired yeasty, nutty flavours. Seven years ageing is thought to be the minimum required to see the full autolytic benefits in Champagne - any less just isnt as good, they say - but not every sparkling winemaker can afford to store his wines this long. As soon as the wine is disgorged, its sediment released, autolysis stops.

Source: JustDrinksFactSheet

 

[pdilley]

Complexity will come with blending different apple types together - blending separate ferments together will let you try out a lot of ratios without committing to a full fermentation where the additions will normally be relegated only to juices. Simplest teaches you that you can easily make something better and most cases for less than cider kits in the store. Next thing try is different yeasts as the champers as you found will always send you completely dry. The OG of simplest is low range of beere so you can try yeasts normally used to ferment there. You can also try blending it with an ale as the next step up is blends with malt and hops if you go down the want to drink it younger path, the other path is to try the higher OG paths with a stronger abv and give a go at getying your aging down. Nothing of course stops you putting down long aged batches and make a young one in-between. Its normal in Germany to mix juices in to either reduce abv as the need arises or to change flavour, that region of europe has it if you look to Belgian lambics and the sweet woodruff syrups mixed in. Primary driver for ciders in my house is the wife, so I do blends of non-alc ciders, juices, simplest and blackrock for her.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Primarily I will be looking to produce fresh, clean apple tasting cider -- But I have had a few Normandy ciders recently and I love the damn things. They (or the ones I liked most) have a bunch of yeast derived character. Typical lees stuff - almonds, honey, breadcrust and the body and mouthfeel that goes along with it.

Looks like I might have to diverge any cider making efforts - some quicker and more apple and apple complexity driven. And some longer term stuff for the more yeast driven versions.

Is anyone local (or just in Australia) producing Normandy style ciders?? I need some experienced brains to pick.

 

[kirem]

Is anyone local (or just in Australia) producing Normandy style ciders?? I need some experienced brains to pick.

they are up for sale but these guys might help you a bit.
http://www.thorogoods.com.au

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks for that Kirem, I might drop them a line -- you can probably help me too.

My cider is good - an hour or so of bubbling C02 through the stuff and hey presto ... no more fart smell.

Without the nasty smell you can tell that the cider is...

Bone dry, still has a distinct but not strong apple flavour and aroma, good acid and just a little tannin so its got some structure.

It is as a matter of fact too dry and I have been experimenting with adding a little sugar to give it some sweetness and body. Just a little bit - we are still talking brut .. just not brut natural. Just a little makes the fruit stand out more and gives it a tad more mouthfeel. I will probably look to backsweeten any future batches with lactose or maybe even stabilise the cider and backsweeten with sucrose or fresh juice.

I would like to get a bit more yeast lees character into it next time - and was thinking about a change of yeast to help get that without having to bottle age it for 7 years.

I was thinking

Lalvin D254

Recommended for all red wines and Chardonnay. Enhanced mouthfeel due to its production of polysaccharides. In red wines, D254 contributes to fore-mouth volume, enhanced mid-palate mouthfeel, smooth tannins and a mildly spicy finish. In Chardonnay, produces nutty aromas and creamy mouthfeel. Fermentation temperature 12-28 degrees, alcohol tolerance 16%, killer neutral.

or more likely

Lalvin CY3079

Typically used for barrel or tank fermentation of Chardonnay for maturation, or as a component of blends. Induces a rapid development on lees of yeast derived flavours (toasted bread, honey, hazelnut and almond) and roundness. Short lag time and moderate fermentation figour, can be slow to finish. Alcohol tolerance to 15%, fermentation temperature range 15-25 degrees, killer neutral


Any winemakers able to tell me if there is any chance of these yeasts giving me what I want, or feel like putting me in my place with realistic suggestions?

any suggestions much appreciated

TB