My all grain (BIAB) no chill beers are all really bad...

[bum]

I recall reading all the formative threads made during the development of BIAB and they all widely accepted that it was a shortcut method. Shortcuts were being made in some aspects in the name of gains in other aspects.

Now everyone takes shortcuts on that method and gets cut when someone suggests it isn't an ideal process?

I know my own process isn't ideal. You pricks need to harden up and get real.

 

[Nick JD]

My process isn't ideal, it's far, far from ideal ... but in this context I would never blame BIAB for making beer that sounds to me like it's displaying signs of infection. Only a dickwad with a point to prove is going to attempt that segue.

And therin lies the rub. We all know BIAB is shoddy, but it's well-proven to make competition-winning beers, even if done without ideal practices. So ///'s comment is particularly insidious and I dare say TROLLING at its utmost - especially on the forum that was responsible for the development of it.

I know for a fact that it's damn near impossible to brew in a bag and make wort that doesn't produce decent beer. That said, a faulty thermometer will ruin a batch in all wort-production methods. Above all, an infection can slip by the most studious brewer.

 

[WarmBeer]

... the porter was 1.012 and the IPA was 1.011

And to the OP - what's your FG?

roffle

 

[GalBrew]

Why so cranky today bum? h34r:

 

[bum]

My process isn't ideal, it's far, far from ideal ... but in this context I would never blame BIAB for making beer that sounds to me like it's displaying signs of infection. Only a dickwad with a point to prove is going to attempt that segue.

And therin lies the rub. We all know BIAB is shoddy, but it's well-proven to make competition-winning beers, even if done without ideal practices. So ///'s comment is particularly insidious and I dare say TROLLING at its utmost - especially on the forum that was responsible for the development of it.

I know for a fact that it's damn near impossible to brew in a bag and make wort that doesn't produce decent beer. That said, a faulty thermometer will ruin a batch in all wort-production methods. Above all, an infection can slip by the most studious brewer.

His post was certainly a bit trolly but not as much as some of the responses to it have been flamey.

I strongly disagree with your point that everyone knows "BIAB is shoddy". "Shoddy" isn't the word I'd use myself but there's so many brewers here who don't understand that there are many rounded edges on the process as widely recommended here these days.

 

[bum]

Why so cranky today bum? h34r:

Ignorance is only bliss for those experiencing it.

 

[Bribie G]

I am no expert but have had a few **** tasting beers from my BIAB. How are you transferring the wort to the cube? I have been just opening the tap and letting it pour in to the cube. I think this may be causing oxidation which is not showing up until after fermentation. Samples from fermenter taste good until after cold crashing. Then the beer gradually tastes worse adn worse as it gets older (Nail polish aroma and off flavour). Both bottles and keg have the same flavour. I am going to change the birko tap to a ball valve and transfer via silicon hose and try to get zero splashing next batch to see if that fixes it.
I hope this information is useful to you and if anybody can confirm or deny this may be the issue it would be helping me too!
Cheers
Neal

Edit: having had the BIAB vs mashtun shitfight, back on topic re the no chill.

I always use the splash and fill method and have done so for maybe 250 brews now, and won a few gongs with some of them. The only "off" beers I produce are down to cube infections - even in cubes that have been soaked with Sodium Percarbonate then starsanned, or poor yeast handling (= being tightarse and trying to get too many generations of yeast from one Wyeast. Occasionally a slight band aid taste).

As I never tire of pointing out, one of the worlds' greatest beers, Pilsner Urquell, had the hot wort poured into open cooling pans "coolships" and fans blown onto it to cool it.

 

[GalBrew]

Ignorance is only bliss for those experiencing it.

......and cagey?

There are plenty of newbies in this thread. Share your knowledge and opinion with them (and all of us), rather than shooting off one liners. I for one would rather hear what you have to say than go back to work....

 

[Bribie G]

there some really dodgey advise in this thread. Using bleach and that god awful pink powder, scrubbing a plastic fermenter ... the way it is going is a great botulism debate of 2013. Worst still, you are BIAB. May as well get yourself a RIMS and really buggar things up.

So, flame suits are on, but if there is an issue, there is one with process. BIAB is bad process for example. If it was good process, commercial breweries would do it. I am a commercial and degree qualified brewer, i would never subject a mash to such.

Adding a campden tablet ... wine maker stuff. stop it.

BU's - a quick glance the BU's would be over 70 with the standard 30% contribution from the whirlpool/flameout hops. Way too much.

Sanitising. Caustic + Peracetic Acid makes for happiness. Aint had an infection on my watch for over 5 years, this year I am on target for 250,000 litres ... it works, do not argue.

Cubes, an old company I worked for filled close to 50,000 l in one year of wort packs. Only use them once. Or, theres this wacky-doo thing called a stainless keg. Clean it properly with Caustic + Peracetic Acid then hot fill and then it is a pretty darn good wort pack, and if you do 20l into a 50l keg the next morning you could chuck some stuff like yeast in and not even move it when it is cool.

Sanitation is the key here, clean clean clean and change what you are using ... get rid of the BIAB as change 1

Some of the best mainstream brews in Australia, for example Coopers Pale and Sparkling and their other brands presumably, use a mash filter which is basically a huge BIAB bag hydraulically squeezed. I'm sure if there was some method of actually conducting the mash within the filter material and if that saved ten cents a litre they would be right onto it I'm sure.

Also now I'm resettled I'll be entering comps again this year with BIAB - including the NSW comp in /// home patch, so let's see how the cow sits in the cabbage patch, hey.

 

[Nick JD]

roffle

Oh.

Well then it's got to be BIAB then. He needs to buy a mash tun.

 

[bum]

......and cagey?

There are plenty of newbies in this thread. Share your knowledge and opinion with them (and all of us), rather than shooting off one liners. I for one would rather hear what you have to say than go back to work....

In the case of this specific thread (though I accept your broader point may relate to other threads presently), a large part of my point comes from a complete in ability of anyone in this thread to make hard-and-fast statements to help OP (well, obviously many are able to make such statements but I'm sure you get my point).

Information given by OP indicates infection may be the best fit but it is not plain that this is definitely the case and he insists this isn't possible (not sure why though). There is nothing in his method to explain the flavours he sorta describes.

I haven't tasted the beer so can't begin to diagnose anything.

Not sure my usual style of advice on fundamentals might be relevant to the issue at hand.

 

[GalBrew]

Well, I guess navigating your way through the usual detritus that fills many a thread and picking out the good stuff is a learning curve we all must follow,

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

<snip> "Shoddy" isn't the word I'd use myself but there's so many brewers here who don't understand that there are many rounded edges on the process as widely recommended here these days.

Not trying to troll, can you explain what you mean - I don't quite understand it, and I'm sure newbs wouldn't.

You know which side of this particular fence I sit on, and it's not about defending that position (though I was tempted to), I'm more curious as to what explicitly you mean. I reckon you're actually agreeing with what I think, but I'm curious.

 

[Mizz]

I thought these threads were supposed to help people? I'm not interested in hearing the back and forth, start another thread for that!

I'm interested in making great beer, I have all the tools to do that (some of which might be infected..) I'll find out for sure on the weekend when some more experienced brewers drink these beers in question. (my guess at this stage is going with the taps on the fermenters) but yes it could be anything.

At this stage the only thing that I'm not in control of (minus the plastic fantastic) or reassured about is the water chemistry (I'm sure there's more though) Do you guys know what you're doing with that? I've read - Key concepts of brewing and John Palmers stuff and it seems straight forward to me... Is there some other text I should read? maybe more recent...

Choose the style of beer your brewing and adjust the water with the appropriate amounts of salts for the style.. there are online calcs that i'm entering all the data into and it seems straight forward, what am I missing?

 

[///]

Some of the best mainstream brews in Australia, for example Coopers Pale and Sparkling and their other brands presumably, use a mash filter which is basically a huge BIAB bag hydraulically squeezed. I'm sure if there was some method of actually conducting the mash within the filter material and if that saved ten cents a litre they would be right onto it I'm sure.

Also now I'm resettled I'll be entering comps again this year with BIAB - including the NSW comp in /// home patch, so let's see how the cow sits in the cabbage patch, hey.

i'm sorry, but a mash filter is not a huge ball of malt squeezed poorly. I spent $130k on one about 2 weeks ago and I have a fare grasp on the machinery in question, and I think the comparison is not the best. Particuarly when you consider the thickness of the grain in the chamber, the pressure applied on each successive press cycle and the wort clarity.What is the wort clarity of a BIAB system? Is there any? I'm just asking for facts, not mounting a personal attack. There is plenty of science easily available online about wort production, particularly on the flavor impacts of poor quality wort.

Manticle - i agree whole heartily about chucking out the plastic. A $15 drum is nothing compared to raw materials plus the time taken to make the wort. Using a Cornie keg that can be bombed with heavy cleaners is a viable option if you want a vessel that could be hot filled (wondering on the impact of contracting wort though ... ?). If in doubt, chuck it out is my mantra.

I do appreciate the bunny award, it is well received. Funny how the presentation of a bit of informed opinion all of a sudden is taken so personal and the insults and threats flow ... as my bad analogy stands, millions of people pick their nose and eat it around the world and they are just fine. But is it the right thing to do really?

Same applies to BIAB in my opinion (which I thought I could have on this digest), it makes wort sure, but I am extremely suspicious on the quality of it. The excuse of 'its homebrewing and i'll just ignore anything that contradicts my position' does not cut it for me, and never has in the 20 odd years I have home brewed. Its just excuses ... nothing more, nothing less.

Scotty

 

[citizensnips]

excuses that produce award winning beers?

 

[bum]

I'm more curious as to what explicitly you mean. I reckon you're actually agreeing with what I think, but I'm curious.

I'm sure I don't need to provide links to the vast number of threads where people are having issues because they are running before they can walk. Christ, most people don't even seem to know what feet are lately.

Shortcuts are fine. I'm not against any specific method but it doesn't seem well understood that we need to have an understanding of what the effects are and how they might be mitigated.

Sorry to OP for forcing him to endure reading discussions on a discussion board.

 

[///]

I thought these threads were supposed to help people? I'm not interested in hearing the back and forth, start another thread for that!

I'm interested in making great beer, I have all the tools to do that (some of which might be infected..) I'll find out for sure on the weekend when some more experienced brewers drink these beers in question. (my guess at this stage is going with the taps on the fermenters) but yes it could be anything.

At this stage the only thing that I'm not in control of (minus the plastic fantastic) or reassured about is the water chemistry (I'm sure there's more though) Do you guys know what you're doing with that? I've read - Key concepts of brewing and John Palmers stuff and it seems straight forward to me... Is there some other text I should read? maybe more recent...

Choose the style of beer your brewing and adjust the water with the appropriate amounts of salts for the style.. there are online calcs that i'm entering all the data into and it seems straight forward, what am I missing?

Water Chemistry for Melb is easy to deal with, I can dig out some notes. If you are worried about it, a good place to shoot for is 100 ppm of Calcium. Remember, calcium aids pH (it binds with phosphorus to drop pH), aids in trub formation, is a yeast nutrient and aids in yeast floculation (builds an ionic bridge between cells and helps them group together to then floculate).

From there it is case of Sulphate and Chloride levels to manipulate the hop appearance in the flavour profile. Palmer as others do covers this. Beer smith and a water report can help with the addition, if you cant follow it it can be spec'ed up pretty quickly.

But, as more than a few have stated, look at replacing things like the cube and eliminate that issue. And as above, I would look at another mash technique and the amount your malt is milled to cater for the affect this will have on your beer. It is substancial, some people much smarter than me found this out years ago.

Lastly, have you checked the final beer pH? if it is infected this will read lower, my pH start 5.4-6 and stop about 4.4. Start going to the low 4's and 3's then you have an issue. A final gravity is below 1.004 will also be a red flag ...

 

[Bribie G]

Actually for wort clarity as it happens I did post a few piccies on another thread just now which illustrate what BIAB wort looks like on my system, and it's the BAD wort shown there which I collected as "salvage" material. Wort out of the kettle into the NC cube is always bright.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

What is the wort clarity of a BIAB system? Is there any? I'm just asking for facts, not mounting a personal attack. There is plenty of science easily available online about wort production, particularly on the flavor impacts of poor quality wort.

Sorry if this derails the thread but I'm a relative noob and I'm honestly interested in how clarity = quality in this instance.

If everything settles out during fermentation anyway, what are the negative/positive effects, other than more trub in the kettle (or fermenter)?

While not specifically about turbid wort, this thread got me thinking about the fermenting on hot break experiment.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71545-fermenting-on-hot-break/



EDIT: beaten to the punch by Bribie