My all grain (BIAB) no chill beers are all really bad...

[bum]

I studiously maintain THE LIST.

 

[manticle]

Must have a lot of space hired at the Victorian Archives.

 

[tavas]

If it tastes fine out of the fermenter, and all bottles taste the same now, then start from there and work backwards. I'd be looking at the cube, transfer hose and bottling wand and focus on those. For the cost and hassle factor I would be ditching all three and starting fresh.

My spare time is quite sparse and therefore I put a dollar value on it. So for me, ditching suspect gear in favour of more time with family is a quick economic decision, as opposed to repeated cleaning, rinsing, sanitising. YMMV.

 

[slash22000]

I've decided to clean the hell out of my all my plastic equipment with bleach-then boiling water-then sodium metabisulfite-then soak in no rinse sanitiser overnight-then rinse again with boiling water. I'll make batch of beer I've made and see if I've fixed it.

You should get a new fermenter mate. Seriously. A bucket from Bunnings is like $20.

But here's a thought though - do you scrub the fermentor? With a scourer or something? Because that's the worst thing you can do to a plastic fermenter, you will scratch the surface, and infectious bacteria will hide in the scratches.

 

[jc64]

Off topic but related to the OP. Why use a campden tablet? Melbourne water is fine isn't it?

 

[manticle]

Yes.

 

[jc64]

So If I was the OP I'd lose that for a start.

 

[///]

there some really dodgey advise in this thread. Using bleach and that god awful pink powder, scrubbing a plastic fermenter ... the way it is going is a great botulism debate of 2013. Worst still, you are BIAB. May as well get yourself a RIMS and really buggar things up.

So, flame suits are on, but if there is an issue, there is one with process. BIAB is bad process for example. If it was good process, commercial breweries would do it. I am a commercial and degree qualified brewer, i would never subject a mash to such.

Adding a campden tablet ... wine maker stuff. stop it.

BU's - a quick glance the BU's would be over 70 with the standard 30% contribution from the whirlpool/flameout hops. Way too much.

Sanitising. Caustic + Peracetic Acid makes for happiness. Aint had an infection on my watch for over 5 years, this year I am on target for 250,000 litres ... it works, do not argue.

Cubes, an old company I worked for filled close to 50,000 l in one year of wort packs. Only use them once. Or, theres this wacky-doo thing called a stainless keg. Clean it properly with Caustic + Peracetic Acid then hot fill and then it is a pretty darn good wort pack, and if you do 20l into a 50l keg the next morning you could chuck some stuff like yeast in and not even move it when it is cool.

Sanitation is the key here, clean clean clean and change what you are using ... get rid of the BIAB as change 1

 

[Liam_snorkel]

If it was good process, commercial breweries would do it.

you'd need a f$%king big bag for a start.

 

[manticle]

But Scotty - and this is a fair enough but - loads of people use BIAB as a method (HB - it's not practical for commercial practices) and cubes and do not get winelike, thin results.

Bleach is recommended (by me anyway) purely as a single step in a massive 'bomb the **** out of it' regime to get rid of a persistent bug and mainly in the brewery. I base it on the regimes suggested by experienced brewers such as screwtop and by my own experience with a persistent bug.

Replacing equipment and sanitation cleaning - we agree absolutely on that. Bleaching old plastic stuff that may be harbouring bugs is asking for wasting more time and beer. I suggest bleaching the brewery itself and the new equipment just to be extra sure (and following that bleach with everything else I mentioned to get rid of both the bleach and to further sanitise)

 

[mattdean4130]

there some really dodgey advise in this thread. Using bleach and that god awful pink powder, scrubbing a plastic fermenter ... the way it is going is a great botulism debate of 2013. Worst still, you are BIAB. May as well get yourself a RIMS and really buggar things up.

Actually the guy asked if the OP was scrubbing, not advising him to.....
As for the pink powder, that was from me.
And i'd really like to know what's "god awful" about it? (EDIT - not saying this as a snide remark, but for my own knowledge)
Was given it from my local brew shop, and it seems to do the trick just fine? Perhaps i'm inexperienced and impressionable, but i'd think advise from a guy who runs a store dedicated to the craft wouldn't give me an inferior product when price was not an issue....

In defence to my own post about my "experience" (read experience, not advice).... Dodgey advise?

The definition of a furum is "a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas" so, it's kind of rude to discount other peoples input because you believe yours is superior....
It very well may be, (EDIT- i just re-read your post, and see you have a brewing degree. So i guess you do have the knowledge.) and I for one disclosed my experience and background in brewing before offering my "experience," (EDIT - i still stand by this one) but there's no need really to be so condescending is there?

I mean, we're all in this for the same reasons - i think. And it's surely not to appear "cool" on the internet?

 

[slash22000]

BIAB is bad process for example. If it was good process, commercial breweries would do it.

Extremely not interested in starting a whole flame war here, but this is the least logical statement I've read tonight. A home brewer should not do something, because commercial brewers don't do it? You say you are a commercial brewer, you of all people should know that home brewing techniques and commercial brewing do not directly correlate. Lots of things change when you go from 20 litres to 2000 litres. You want to hire a crane to lift a commercial sized voile bag?

Being a professional brewer does not automatically make you an expert on everything remotely related to brewing. Not saying you don't know what you're doing, but talking about how you brew professional in no way guarantees your advice is good. Pretty sure all of us have worked with "professionals" in our respective fields of work who didn't know left from right.

As far as "BIAB is bad", you've obviously made up your mind, but if you spend 5 minutes on Google you'll see thousands of brewers worldwide making fantastic BIAB beers every day. You don't like the method, sure, fair enough, but that doesn't mean it's a bad method. Not saying it's the best method, but it's ridiculous that you jump straight to BIAB as being the problem when 99% of BIAB brewers are perfectly happy with their beers.

Adding a campden tablet ... wine maker stuff. stop it.

Home brewers use campden tablets all the time. You only need maybe a quarter of a tablet to de-chlorinate water for a beer though, maybe OP is using dozens of tablets like you'd use in wine must?

 

[///]

But Scotty - and this is a fair enough but - loads of people use BIAB as a method (HB - it's not practical for commercial practices) and cubes and do not get winelike, thin results.

Bleach is recommended (by me anyway) purely as a single step in a massive 'bomb the **** out of it' regime to get rid of a persistent bug and mainly in the brewery. I base it on the regimes suggested by experienced brewers such as screwtop and by my own experience with a persistent bug.

Replacing equipment and sanitation cleaning - we agree absolutely on that. Bleaching old plastic stuff that may be harbouring bugs is asking for wasting more time and beer. I suggest bleaching the brewery itself and the new equipment just to be extra sure (and following that bleach with everything else I mentioned to get rid of both the bleach and to further sanitise)

Winelike thin is sanitation to me - if there is lacto/ acetebactor/ pediococus it rips through the beer and throws up haze. BIAB works, buts its like picking your nose. It is not good process, but lots of folks do it. Are there clear worts from this sort of brewing? Who knows, and a mash/lauter tun really aint hard to make.

Bleach is a punisher for sure, but 80 caustic cannot be replaced imho. Over 70c we get pasturisation and with caustic breaking down fats and proteins, all possible cling points. The reason I mentioned a keg as it has limited hiding holes and smooth surfaces.

But in this one, reusing cubes particuarly if the tap hole is drilled out is the big problem. to many hiding places.

For the pink sanitiser nazi, i appreciate your lecture about a forum of which I have made over 2600 posts on compared to your 36. From my memory it is about the second time I have mentioned I have a degree in brewing science in that time, and anyway, whats your shop mates training? If memory serves me correctly, pink powder it is manganese sulphate, and a) sulphates rupture the cell walls of microbes and destroy them or b. just put them into a state of suspension to destroy your beer another day. My answer is a, yours? If it is not manganese sulphate what is it ... and where is it used in a commercial brewery compared to a regime of caustic and acid? To be a blunt prick here mate, this is evidenced based science, not my petty little opinions or that of a HB shop owner.

The BIAB arguements are to me all excuses. Particuarly when a MT is so easy to make and manage. My thoughts are BIAB shows a contempt for the mashing process. This is not just about making sugar, but clean extract recovery with low levels of dissolved lipids, polyphenols and proteins. Again, science is a plenty here about poor mash technique, its not just my kookie opinion.

 

[bum]

Extremely not interested in starting a whole flame war here, but this is the least logical statement I've read tonight. A home brewer should not do something, because commercial brewers don't do it? You say you are a commercial brewer, you of all people should know that home brewing techniques and commercial brewing do not directly correlate. Lots of things change when you go from 20 litres to 2000 litres. You want to hire a crane to lift a commercial sized voile bag?

Being a professional brewer does not automatically make you an expert on everything remotely related to brewing. Not saying you don't know what you're doing, but talking about how you brew professional in no way guarantees your advice is good. Pretty sure all of us have worked with "professionals" in our respective fields of work who didn't know left from right.

As far as "BIAB is bad", you've obviously made up your mind, but if you spend 5 minutes on Google you'll see thousands of brewers worldwide making fantastic BIAB beers every day. You don't like the method, sure, fair enough, but that doesn't mean it's a bad method. Not saying it's the best method, but it's ridiculous that you jump straight to BIAB as being the problem when 99% of BIAB brewers are perfectly happy with their beers.


Home brewers use campden tablets all the time. You only need maybe a quarter of a tablet to de-chlorinate water for a beer though, maybe OP is using dozens of tablets like you'd use in wine must?

You flat-out declared HSA as non-existent.

Just sayin'.

 

[jc64]

Botulism, homebrewers use campden tablets all the time. This is interesting now!
:beerbang:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Why oh why isn't there a 'dislike' button???

 

[iralosavic]

Vitamin C dechlorinates and is good for the immune system - fact! *sound effect of a heavy stamp being slammed.

Seriously, take a gravity reading in a 20c sample and if its like 1.004 or less, I know what I'm banking on. If it is a persistent infection, replace your ****! I couldn't agree more with whoever said it: ruining a potential beer after you've lovingly created it hard to put price on, but when the ingredients alone for ONE batch cost the same as a fermenter, you don't have to be the shadow treasurer to validly scrutinise the plan not to replace your ****.

 

[mattdean4130]

Vitamin C dechlorinates and is good for the immune system - fact! *sound effect of a heavy stamp being slammed.

Seriously, take a gravity reading in a 20c sample and if its like 1.004 or less, I know what I'm banking on. If it is a persistent infection, replace your ****! I couldn't agree more with whoever said it: ruining a potential beer after you've lovingly created it hard to put price on, but when the ingredients alone for ONE batch cost the same as a fermenter, you don't have to be the shadow treasurer to validly scrutinise the plan not to replace your ****.

Might be a bad analogy. The current one most likely struggles with buying 1ltr or 2 of milk at a time :drinks:

 

[manticle]

.
Can't seem to quote on my phone so this is at ///

Tap/no tap, chill/no chill, once an infection occurs in a plastic vessel it's time for the refuse heap. Stainless would definitely be better in that regard.

Think we agree on the main points and I can't really fault the follow up post although I've never used caustic in my hb system (used plenty when I worked in kitchens - powerful but nasty stuff)

 

[slash22000]

You flat-out declared HSA as non-existent.

Just sayin'.

When did I flat out declare HSA non-existent? In this thread or sometime in the past?

But I mean if we're going to bring it up, everything I've ever read on the subject has indicated to me that HSA is either a myth or, if it does exist, it's virtually impossible to actually accomplish, at least on a home brew scale. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I spend a lot of time reading up on this **** to try and make sure I'm not doing something stupid with my beer.

Botulism, homebrewers use campden tablets all the time. This is interesting now!

Dunno if you were being snarky here or something (sorry in advance if not), but yeah, campden tablets are used all the time by home brewers worldwide. Maybe not so much in Australia? I dunno what the chlorine etc levels anywhere other than Darwin. But I can tell you right now that, overseas at least (?), they are used by home brewers constantly, especially to remove chloramine that is not able to be treated by other methods.