Mongrel Weizen Stout

[Fatgodzilla]

Oh yes, the size has something to do with it as well. I'm sorry I didn't clue into that fact earlier. These are 23l carboys, which are more or less the standard here. I usually put ~21l in them. I definitely lose some beer through the blowoff, but not much. I once tried only filling them to ~19l, but they still ended up blowing off anyway so I now just say screw it and put a lot in them.

Making more sense. The average punter here uses 30l closed fermenters, hence the aptness of Wally's 2 cents worth. I'll save your photo and produce next time a noobie has a gushing fermenter. I can say " In Canada ........... Inexperienced brewers equate overflowing fermenters with "Danger, Danger Will Robinson" scenarios. I did until I found it wasn't really a problem.

You learn something new each day. Gotta love this brewing game ! :beerbang:

 

[brettprevans]

love a good experiment and the sounds of a weizen stout

im doing a mongrel black bavarian/Schwarzbier for the Vic caseswap.

2:1 light malt extract to dark malt extract
300g choc grain,
100g black grain,
100g carapils
100g light crystal
50g Melanoidian Malt,
50g roast barley,
Saaz hops all the way, @60, @30, @15, @10 @0.
S-189 yeast
shoot for ~26IBU and 6.1-6.4%.


Edit: forgot some ingredients.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Quick fermentations, I think, are better. The reason being that the yeast consumes the sugars quickly, thus leaving nothing for bacteria, should they be in the wort.

I feel a bit uneasy about this statement. I think perhaps it just needs a couple of qualifiers, like ... depending on the yeast strain and objectives for your beer. I mean, you can always speed up fermentation by increasing temperature--so why do we restrict temperature? It is because we are slowing down yeast metabolism to suppress the production of residual nasty flavour compounds that are the by-products of overly quick fermentation. Why do some yeasts (saison yeast, Mauri yeast) perform well at warm temperatures? Because they have a naturally slow metabolism, and in the case of saison, the compounds the yeast throws at these temperatures are desirable for the style. Same could arguably be said for fast weizen
fermentations and even English ales. The esters and phenols are part of the target characteristics for the beer. But go too high and you can get some real nasties like acetadehyde.

So I think that yes, you want a reasonably quick fermentation, but not super quick, and achieving that optimum rate is a kind of balancing act between the yeast strains innate metabolic rate, temperature, and just how clean you want your beer.

 

[newguy]

I feel a bit uneasy about this statement. I think perhaps it just needs a couple of qualifiers, like ... depending on the yeast strain and objectives for your beer. I mean, you can always speed up fermentation by increasing temperature--so why do we restrict temperature? It is because we are slowing down yeast metabolism to suppress the production of residual nasty flavour compounds that are the by-products of overly quick fermentation. Why do some yeasts (saison yeast, Mauri yeast) perform well at warm temperatures? Because they have a naturally slow metabolism, and in the case of saison, the compounds the yeast throws at these temperatures are desirable for the style. Same could arguably be said for fast weizen
fermentations and even English ales. The esters and phenols are part of the target characteristics for the beer. But go too high and you can get some real nasties like acetadehyde.

So I think that yes, you want a reasonably quick fermentation, but not super quick, and achieving that optimum rate is a kind of balancing act between the yeast strains innate metabolic rate, temperature, and just how clean you want your beer.

I see your point. The issue I have with all my beers is that they're not estery enough. Not for me, anyway. I can brew clean styles like there's no tomorrow, but I have never been successful at brewing an estery beer. The problem is that my basement, where I ferment, is too cool for the yeast to produce the esters I want. I'd love to brew a beautiful estery English bitter, but no matter how hard I try, I can't. I can't bring my fermenters upstairs where it's warmer for lack of dark space. I don't have any spaces where I can put a carboy and not be in direct sunlight at some point during the day. The one yeast I've discovered that will produce some (but not many) esters at my normal fermentation temperatures is wyeast 1318 London III. For that reason, it's my English yeast of choice.

I can't be bothered to build a dedicated temperature controlled chamber for my fermenters. I could do it, but the lack of esters just isn't a big enough reason for me to do something about it yet. Maybe some day, but not now.

All my beers are produced identically - lots of yeast, fast ferment. With the exception of the 1318 strain, they're all clean. I haven't had acetaldehyde in my beers since I went AG and ditched the corn sugar. The only times I've ever had major flavour/quality issues were when I underpitched and underoxygenated. I was fortunate to take a lot of medals at the AHA's NHC first round last month, so I know my yeast handling/pitching procedures are okay.

 

[Stuster]

As I guess you know, the lack of esters and the high pitching rate are linked, with lower pitching rates giving more esters. Obviously, you want enough yeast that you are not underpitching, but if you are after esters, why not pitch lower less time? To raise the temperature, even wrapping the fermenter in a blanket will help.

 

[newguy]

Actually I didn't know that less yeast = more esters. Where can I read more about it? Would Palmer's online book be a good source?

It doesn't completely explain everything, though. I'm getting loads of banana from the weizen and dunkelweizen that I did with this yeast. And the micro in town that I'm most familiar with gets a lot of esters in their beers, and they pitch a little over 1l of thick yeast slurry to 100l of wort (they pitch 25-30l per 21-22hl).

 

[Stuster]

Newguy, have a look at the BYO article here. (second one down). It comes down to this.

As a rule, low pitching rates will yield higher levels of esters in finished beers. ... Other factors that affect ester production include pitching and fermentation temperatures (as you said), wort gravity and composition, and, of course, the yeast strain's inherent propensity for ester production.

All other things being equal, higher pitching rates lead to less growth of yeast in the wort

 

[newguy]

Thanks for the link. I have an English yeast in stock and I'll try underpitching (or at least not pitching my normal amount) when I use it.

 

[newguy]

Kegged this beer yesterday and just finished force carbonating it a few minutes ago. It's weird. There's a weird coffee/banana/clove flavour that is really strange but very good. Also very silky smooth, almost oily, from the oats. It's almost Abbey-like in its flavour profile, if that makes sense. It should if you've had a lot of Abbey beers.

The balance is one of those '3-way' ties that some beers have. Usually it's just 2: malt sweetness as opposed to hop bitterness/flavour. This one also has the banana/clove vying for attention. Come to think of it, there's a roast coffee burnt profile in there too.

I'll definitely brew this again, but I think that it would really benefit from ~5-10% dark crystal or special B malt.

 

[mfdes]

Thanks for the feedback!

MFS.