Minimum chlorine levels for noticeable phenol/band aid flavours?

[rude]

Thanks for that Fungrel I cube as well

How does it do that mate ?

I thought the boil of the wort & cleaning, sanitation of the cube before transfer took care of that

Cheers in advanced Rude

 

[BKBrews]

wow %80 attenuation was that us05 yeast ?

I use to use potassium metabisulfite for my tap water to rid chlorine

But happy with my R/O set up now except my attenuation has taken a hit
low %70 ies using us05 & nutrients

Just doesnt get as low 1013 1014 og 1050 mashing at 66c for Pale Ale 100g of crystal 500g of munich
the rest base malt

Anyway good thread lads

Yep - US-05 rehydrated and pitched/fermented at 18 degrees. I used 1.75 packs which I had in the fridge and were actually quite old, so happy that it got down.

Why would using R/O water affect attenuation? I would have thought treated water would be far better for yeast health.

 

[rude]

it takes nearly everything out so nutrient is the way I have gone for yeast health

The other thread that has gone mad 02 ing might help me also

I rehydrate as well 2 x pkts 23 litres 1050

 

[Jack of all biers]

Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water).

This could be interesting

It has 500mg Vitamin C, so should do the trick? I have no idea whether any of the other vitamins react with anything though - this thread has made it quite clear to me that I know absolutely nothing about chemistry

I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.

Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.

However.....

Some of the things to be aware of with adding Berocca tablets to your water, would be the unknown amounts of Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (bicarb of soda) and Sodium Carbonate (the ingredients that make them fizz). Obviously these would need to be taken into account in your water profile and I'd assume make up a large part of the tablets contents so you would need to take the carbonate levels in your water into account (not so much of an issue if you have low carbonate levels in your water, but if you have hard water then adding more will not help your mash pH). Also adding carbonates to your water are Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate (likely in smaller amounts). Also there is an anti-foaming agent in there to stop the liquid you place the tablet in from foaming over (Polysorbate 60 - polyoxyethylene (20) sorbitan monostearate) [It's a non-ionic surfactant and therefore the least toxic of surfactants. e.g. Polysorbate 80 is in most ice cream] . The amount in the tablet is unpublished, but if your brew volume was high and not a small batch it would probably be diluted enough not to effect the end product. Most emulsifiers are denatured when heated above 70C anyway, so the wort boil would likely finish it off.

So I guess positives and negatives. Food for thought for anyone who wants to add one to their water in the future though.

http://johnemsley.com/articles/wired/berocca.html
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-berocca
http://www.berocca.com.au/faqs/berocca-performance/
http://www.slideshare.net/arijabuhaniyeh/pharmaceutics-emulsions

 

[mabrungard]

Ascorbic acid MW = 176 g/mol, NH2Cl MW = 51 g/mol, stoichiometry as stated is 1: 1, therefore 176 / 51 ~ 3.5 mg/l ascorbic reacts with 1 mg /l of chloramine.

It looks to me like someone has made an arithmetical error in your reference, 1.7 mg/l ascorbic would be the required addition rate for 0.5 mg/l chloramine, not 3 mg/l.

Perhaps Martin can comment.

That is a good catch. That 1.7mg/l ascorbic addition was taken from a reference by Davis, Barrett, and McGuire (1985) which was published in the American Water Works Association. It referred to a dialysis solution, but stated that the dose would remove up to 3 mg/l chloramines. As pointed out by stoichiometry, that addition does not appear to be sufficient to remove that level of disinfectant.

Further research into ascorbic acid dosage indicates that a dosage of about 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part of chlorine is typically sufficient. However, it appears that this dosage is based on chlorine gas. That may not be correct since chlorine gas dissociates to hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid when combined with water. Therefore, the stoichiometric dose of about 3.5 parts ascorbic acid per part hypochlorite or monochloramine is about right.

The only question is if the reported free or total 'chlorine' content produced by lab or field testing is reporting the result as 'chlorine gas' or as 'hypochlorite or chloramines'? Review of Hach's website does show that when their testing equipment or methods are used, the resulting free or total chlorine content is reported in terms of chlorine gas (Cl2). Therefore, it appears that the dosage should be about 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part chlorine.

Sorry for the confusion. The information on ascorbic acid use in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website has been revised.

Thanks for catching that!

 

[BKBrews]

So I brewed again yesterday and reversed my process, I boiled the water the night before for 1 hour, switched off, topped back up to 32L - 33L and left overnight. The next morning I added my vit c tablet, about 1 hour prior to brewing. Now, again, the water was still 50 degrees when I added it. Would this sort of heat render it useless? I guess we'll find out. This was my first beer with water chemistry manipulation as well, so I added 8g CaSO4, 5g CaCI2 and 3g MgSO4.

My first beer using this new method is now on tap and tasting delicious. Chalk and cheese.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

That is a good catch.

The information on ascorbic acid use in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website has been revised.

No problems.

Love your work, I'm chuffed that I got to add a tiny bit to it.

 

[BKBrews]

They've just installed a reverse osmosis water supply at the grocery store I go to. Going to give it a try next time. $4 per 15L, so I will take a 30L fermenter and fill it to the brim.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.

Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.

However.....

Some of the things to be aware of with adding Berocca tablets to your water, would be the unknown amounts of Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (bicarb of soda) and Sodium Carbonate (the ingredients that make them fizz). Obviously these would need to be taken into account in your water profile and I'd assume make up a large part of the tablets contents so you would need to take the carbonate levels in your water into account (not so much of an issue if you have low carbonate levels in your water, but if you have hard water then adding more will not help your mash pH). Also adding carbonates to your water are Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate (likely in smaller amounts). Also there is an anti-foaming agent in there to stop the liquid you place the tablet in from foaming over[/size] (Polysorbate 60 - [/size]polyoxyethylene (20) sorbitan monostearate) [It's a non-ionic surfactant and therefore the least toxic of surfactants. e.g. Polysorbate 80 is in most ice cream] . The amount in the tablet is unpublished, but if your brew volume was high and not a small batch it would probably be diluted enough not to effect the end product. Most emulsifiers are denatured when heated above 70C anyway, so the wort boil would likely finish it off.[/size]

So I guess positives and negatives. Food for thought for anyone who wants to add one to their water in the future though.[/size]

http://johnemsley.com/articles/wired/berocca.html
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-berocca
http://www.berocca.com.au/faqs/berocca-performance/
http://www.slideshare.net/arijabuhaniyeh/pharmaceutics-emulsions

Thanks, that's very interesting, as you say some positives and maybe some negatives.

The fermentation was very strong so I'm hopeful of a great beer. Will report back in a few weeks on how it goes.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I know this was a one off, but it got me thinking, so I did a little research.

Other than the Vitamin C which has already been covered, Berocca tablets contain small amounts of Zinc (~10 mg) and the Vitamin B's which are mostly heat stable (not B5 - Pantothenic acid) so aren't denatured by heating the strike water before adding to the mash. Fortunately both Zinc and B vitamins are good as co-factors or co-enzymes for enzymes, which will help your mash and yeast along. It also contains Calcium (~100 mg), Magnesium (~100 mg) and Sodium (~274 mg) that will need to be taken into account with your water profile. The Zinc will also need to be taken into account if you make additions.

However.....

Some of the things to be aware of with adding Berocca tablets to your water, would be the unknown amounts of Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (bicarb of soda) and Sodium Carbonate (the ingredients that make them fizz). Obviously these would need to be taken into account in your water profile and I'd assume make up a large part of the tablets contents so you would need to take the carbonate levels in your water into account (not so much of an issue if you have low carbonate levels in your water, but if you have hard water then adding more will not help your mash pH). Also adding carbonates to your water are Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate (likely in smaller amounts). Also there is an anti-foaming agent in there to stop the liquid you place the tablet in from foaming over[/size] (Polysorbate 60 - [/size]polyoxyethylene (20) sorbitan monostearate) [It's a non-ionic surfactant and therefore the least toxic of surfactants. e.g. Polysorbate 80 is in most ice cream] . The amount in the tablet is unpublished, but if your brew volume was high and not a small batch it would probably be diluted enough not to effect the end product. Most emulsifiers are denatured when heated above 70C anyway, so the wort boil would likely finish it off.[/size]

So I guess positives and negatives. Food for thought for anyone who wants to add one to their water in the future though.[/size]

http://johnemsley.com/articles/wired/berocca.html
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-berocca
http://www.berocca.com.au/faqs/berocca-performance/
http://www.slideshare.net/arijabuhaniyeh/pharmaceutics-emulsions

Reporting back: The barocca beer turned out quite okay.
A smash with pilsner malt and wakatu - the wakatu is quite limey/apple tasting and a bit mild, probably wanted a little something extra .. but it's a light tasting inoffensive beer. Very drinkable won't last long, although if I'm patient it may improve with a couple weeks ageing.

 

[Brewno Marz]

I would be grateful for advice on removing chloramine from the Brisbane tap water I use for brewing.

UQQ reports use of both chloramine and chlorine for disinfection. For water delivered in SEQ, UQQ states 95th percentile levels of:

• Free chlorine: <0.1 mg/L
• Total chlorine: 2.1 mg/L

Maximum levels are reported as 2.2 mg/L (free) and 3.1 mg/L (total).

Free chlorine is not an issue - I can test for it (and have tested for it) and I tend to fill my HLT the day before and leave it uncovered, which should allow most residual free chlorine to dissipate.

So, based on this data and negligible free chlorine in the water:

1. Could the amount of chloramines result in perceptible off flavours (chlorphenols?)?
2. Should I just treat the water anyway?
3. What level of chloramine should be assumed for treatment? Would the 95th percentile level of 2.1 mg/L be reasonable?
4. For removal of the chloramine what amount should be used (mg per litre of tap water, based on your answer to question 3) for:
   • ascorbic acid;
   • sodium metabisulphite?

Thanks

 

[Rocker1986]

I also use Brisbane tap water for all batches, other than pilsners where I distill it first, and I haven't had any problems with chloramines or chlorine affecting the flavour of my beers. They can affect it though I'm not sure at what level they would have to be at for this to happen. I have also read that some people can't taste chlorophenols even if they are present in the beer.

That said, earlier this year I decided to grab some potassium metabisulphite to remove chlorine/chloramines from the strike water, more as a preventative measure than anything else. The instructed rate works out at about 0.5 - 1g per 100 litres of water to be treated, or 5-10mg per litre. I don't really measure it though, I just throw in a pinch that's probably somewhere around half a gram for my 32 or 36 litres of strike water. The SO2 produced gets boiled off anyway.

 

[Brewno Marz]

I also use Brisbane tap water for all batches, other than pilsners where I distill it first, and I haven't had any problems with chloramines or chlorine affecting the flavour of my beers.

That said, earlier this year I decided to grab some potassium metabisulphite to remove chlorine/chloramines from the strike water, more as a preventative measure than anything./QUOTE]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I am at the same place you were a few months ago.

I'll grab some absorbic acid powder from local chemist and add 375mg (i.e three pinches) to the 75 litres of water in the HLT. Sounds close enough to the 2.5 parts absorbic to 1 part chloramine mentioned above.

 

[stuartf]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I am at the same place you were a few months ago.

I'll grab some absorbic acid powder from local chemist and add 375mg (i.e three pinches) to the 75 litres of water in the HLT. Sounds close enough to the 2.5 parts absorbic to 1 part chloramine mentioned above.

I ended up getting an activated charcoal filter from the big green shed (the ones they use to filter water at caravan sites). This has removed my chlorine issues totally and is pretty easy too.

 

[Rocker1986]

At my current rate of use of the potassium metabisulphite for treating water, the 1kg bag I bought for 10 bucks will last me literally about 100 years. Is there a certain period it lasts before it goes inactive or something or does it just stay good forever?