Minimum chlorine levels for noticeable phenol/band aid flavours?

[BKBrews]

I proceed on the assumption that a slight excess of SO2 (or in my case ascorbic) will do far less harm than underdosing, so I add enough to neutralise 6 mg/l.

With SO2 the reaction product is sulphate anion, this will raise the sulphate level by about 10 ppm. If your water chemistry is precise enough for this to make a difference you should take it into account.

As stated previously, I don't believe the breakdown product from ascorbic addition (DHAA) survives the boil but I am all ears if anyone has a reference that shows otherwise*

I own both a reverse osmosis machine and a full commercial spec carbon filter and haven't bothered using either for brewing at small scale. My problem with using either is that I don't brew enough to justify using it full time so it would need to be broken down and the cartridge stored until next time.





* Reference means a literature reference, not Palmer or a home brewer's website.

I'm a little confused.... didn't you say to add the ascorbic after I'd boiled my water because something happens? If the byproduct of ascorbic (DHAA) doesn't survive the boil, why does it matter when it goes in?

Sorry for all of the questions - just want to make sure I'm clear so I can lockdown a process. Lots of brews in the pipeline and I don't want anymore bad batches!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I meant the wort boil, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[BKBrews]

I meant the wort boil, sorry if that wasn't clear.

So, the DHAA won't survive the wort boil? Why would it survive the water treatment boil?

So my brew day plan will be:

1. Fill grainfather with ~32L water
2. Boil for 1 hour with lid on (5cm hole in lid to vent)
3. Turn off boil and allow to sit overnight
4. 2 hours before mash-in, add 500mg Vit C tablet, stir until dissolved (temp could be anywhere from 20 - 50 during this time)
5. Brew as normal.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

DHAA is the breakdown product of ascorbic acid and is fairly readily hydrolysed (much more readily than ascorbic).

I don't think I said anything about DHAA surviving the water boil.

 

[BKBrews]

OK I think I just misread a few of those earlier posts. I thought it was implied that DHAA was produced by ascorbic acid that had been heated.... Will try the above schedule next time and see if I notice any differences between before or after boil addition.

 

[Jack of all biers]

No, Lyrebird did not imply that DHAA would be produced when ascorbic acid was heated, but I don't think you did misread the earlier posts. It was implied that there would be a benefit from adding the ascorbic acid after an initial boil of the water as opposed to before it. Given the more recent statement that DHAA is fairly readily hydrolysed then can it be explained why this could not occur in a boil of the water alone? This did confuse me at the time as I was of the understanding from the research I had done, that indicated the time ascorbic acid took to react with chloramines was about 4-8 minutes. Given bringing that amount of water to boil would take longer than that. For the record I don't bother boiling the water now, but before the mash it is heated to initial infusion temps.

Lyrebird, just curious. Why is Palmer not suitable literature? Given he has written a few well researched books on brewing, water etc...? Are books not literature? For that matter why are brewing sites written by the likes of Martin Brungard also not suitable (or have I misread you)?

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Peer review.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hang on, is this a scientific review board or a home brew forum?

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Home brew. But you asked.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

My main reason for glossing over the degradation of ascorbic was that IMO it just confuses the issue and there's enough confusion in this thread already.

Here's a potted summary which I hope will reduce confusion:

If you are going to both boil the water and add ascorbic, do it in that order. Boiling an ascorbic solution just reduces its efficacy.

Ascorbic acid in solution in the presence of oxidising agents such as chlorine or chloramine will be oxidised by those agents to dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). This will happen very rapidly.

If the solution also has dissolved oxygen, this wil also oxidise the ascorbic but this will be slower, so if there's enough ascorbic to reduce a given level of chlorine or chloramine they will react first.

If the solution is then heated, any unreacted ascorbic will be hydrolysed but this will proceed slowly.

Meanwhile, the DHAA formed from the reactions with oxidising agents and oxygen will also be hydrolysed and this will occur much more rapidly.

I hope that is reasonably clear.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Lyrebird, just curious. Why is Palmer not suitable literature? Given he has written a few well researched books on brewing, water etc...? Are books not literature? For that matter why are brewing sites written by the likes of Martin Brungard also not suitable (or have I misread you)?

I didn't say Palmer wasn't literature.

I asked for references that might show that what I believed based on my understanding of the chemistry was wrong.

If Palmer stated such a thing, I would just assume that he was wrong.

If Martin Brungard stated such a thing I would sit up and take notice and ask for clarification.

If a peer reviewed article by a professional chemist stated such a thing, I would busy myself working out why I had been mistaken.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Peer review.

Home brew. But you asked.

I think you need to look up the difference in definition between literature and scientific literature. Given that literature references was requested my question was valid. Maybe I am being a smart arse, but I don't understand some of the snobbery that goes on around here. Seriously, if one goes back to MHB's post (#23) where he emphasis's the S in phenols and jump to mine, all I was doing was pointing that most of the literature sources I could find also used this generic term, except one that stated polyphenols (also vague, but it was referenced to a study, albeit one that a quick internet search can't find, but a referenced source) and another that stated that alcohol bonded with chlorine to form chlorophenols (yes I understand that there is a group of aromatic alcohols that are made up of phenols). Martin Brungard's reference stated only organic compounds which is most unhelpful. For the record, I was not trying to answer Lyrebirds question or educate him with my post, but just add a voice stating that the available literature was not clear on the matter.

I don't believe shutting people down because we don't personally believe they fit a certain mold is the way to go on a forum. When that happens, we may not receive input from those that may have something to add that we hadn't thought about.

Lyrebird, thanks for clarifying what you meant about boiling and ascorbic acid. It is logical and makes sense to me. Martin did state that chlorine reacts with organic compounds in the link I posted (#25) so hopefully he sees this thread and can have some input if he knows which of the multitude of phenols/polyphenols do or don't react to form chlorophenols.

 

[MHB]

It's all pretty moot, exactly what reacts with what and when.
If you have Chlorine in you water you may get objectionable Chlorophenols, if you don't have Chlorine in your water you wont!
Its cheap and pretty easy to get rid of so do it, simples really.

Mark

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I think you need to look up the difference in definition between literature and scientific literature.

Was not meaning to cause offence (sorry if I did). I think Lyrebird is genuinely interested in the science behind the topic and as such, would be looking at peer reviewed scientific work to examine methods, results, stats and conclusions. Fair enough.

As MHB says, at the end of the day all most of us want is to remove the chlorine from our water so we have better tasting beer. Amen to that.

Happy brewing.

 

[BKBrews]

Well, took my first hydro sample after 8 days fermenting AND *drum roll*.......

Crisis over. Tastes great, all of the weird water flavours are gone and I think we're back on track. Woes are over.

1.046 down to 1.009 after 8 days. Will dry hop in the morning and keg next Saturday morning.

 

[manticle]

Good

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water).

This could be interesting

 

[BKBrews]

Had no vitamin C in the house, so last night I threw a Barocca in (half in mash water, half in Sparge water).

This could be interesting

It has 500mg Vitamin C, so should do the trick? I have no idea whether any of the other vitamins react with anything though - this thread has made it quite clear to me that I know absolutely nothing about chemistry

 

[rude]

Well, took my first hydro sample after 8 days fermenting AND *drum roll*.......

Crisis over. Tastes great, all of the weird water flavours are gone and I think we're back on track. Woes are over.

1.046 down to 1.009 after 8 days. Will dry hop in the morning and keg next Saturday morning.

ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1478421656.342173.jpg

wow %80 attenuation was that us05 yeast ?

I use to use potassium metabisulfite for my tap water to rid chlorine

But happy with my R/O set up now except my attenuation has taken a hit
low %70 ies using us05 & nutrients

Just doesnt get as low 1013 1014 og 1050 mashing at 66c for Pale Ale 100g of crystal 500g of munich
the rest base malt

Anyway good thread lads

 

[fungrel]

I use a RO filter, but still use metabisulfite to ensure that bacteria levels are kept in check in my cubes etc.