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An interesting article from a British site on stainless steel in the food industry, also a quote from assda
Chloride.
The guidelines allow for the presence, but assume that the surface has been passivated. In alkaline environments (pH 7) chloride levels can be tolerated. Higher temperatures over 60 degrees C are not recommended for 304 and 316 as they are at risk of sudden failure from chloride stress corrosion cracking.
So heating up tap water, not good. Lowering the pH of water containing chloride also not good.
[SIZE=large]Chloride Attack on Stainless Steels[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]Chloride-induced corrosion is not bulk corrosion. We are all familiar with one of the most common forms of bulk corrosion: rust. When iron rusts, the attack is fairly uniform over the surface exposed to the corrosive environment. Chloride attack of stainless steel is exactly the opposite crevices and pits form and grow perpendicularly to the surface being attacked, rather than spreading out evenly as rust does. Some areas may appear essentially untouched by the corrosion, while others will be severely attacked. This means that thicker tubes and pipes will not necessarily last much longer than thin ones before failing due to chloride induced corrosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]This is an example of pitting:[/SIZE]
rust1.2.jpg

[SIZE=large]Stainless steels have excellent corrosion resistance. Water supplies will usually have chlorine or hydrochloric acid added to prevent bacterial growth, it is important to use a material that will resist corrosion by such harsh chemicals. 316 stainless is highly effective in resisting this corrosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]Stainless steel dissolves very slowly in water, even “RO” (reverse osmosis) water, so only a very small amount of chemical compound elements are added to the water. Using plastic, copper, or iron allows all kinds of unknowns to be added to the water. Plasticiser, from certain plastics, can be leached into the water system, especially when aggressive RO water is used.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]Stainless steel is a very clean material and can be sanitised easily. If dead spaces are minimized and surfaces polished to eliminate crevices and pits, bacteria growth is minimized. This is especially true when the piping system is flushed or has continuous water circulation at velocities high enough to cause turbulent flow. Turbulent flow is important because the turbulence creates a scouring of the pipe surface. Low flow or laminar flow leaves a stagnant film of water next to the pipe surface and a biofilm can form.[/SIZE]
 
Zorco said:
Very dilute sanitiser - perc - met
What is perc and met?

Sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate?

Which sanitiser? Phosphoric and sulphonic acid blend?
 
Coldspace said:
Good experiment Zorco, keen to see more results, something's going on,
Ta, but only maybe.

I don't even know if the rice rinse does anything meaningful. I'm seeing a few people from the hundred owners show colours, but I don't think we have anything that resembles a consistent experiment procedure.

I doubt(respectfully) anything on the surface of the steel would change the colour of the rice rinse like that unless there was a pre-existing contaminant.

The only thing I've a hunch on is that 'sugaring' may cause chromium oxide and iron oxide to be produced, being the colours green and rust red respectively. Arguably they could combine to create a blacky browny colour depending on proportions.

Something seems to be happening, but far from clear to me at this stage
 
peteru said:
What is perc and met?

Sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate?

Which sanitiser? Phosphoric and sulphonic acid blend?
Spot on,

StarSan at 1.5x recommended concentration in a spray bottle.... only tipped in 50ml. I wanted to try and detect anything, but too weak probably.
 
Dae Tripper said:
Going in with a endoscope as soon as it turns up in the post. Will post the results soon.

Zorco, the right one looks discolored.
Lighting isn't uniform in the brewery, but agree, it seems more musty yellow than the Perc.

Not moving to black though.
 
Dae Tripper said:
Going in with a endoscope as soon as it turns up in the post. Will post the results
Good luck mate, let us know if the prostate is ok..

Good you're being proactive about these serious man issues[emoji13]
 
I think you may be onto something there WEAL, there are a few articles about chlorine, chloride and stainless steel, add to that overdoing it with Starsan i.e more than 300 ppm, mixing with tap water instead of RO or distilled and leaving on a surface longer than the 2 minutes as advised by 5 star chemicals.
 
FYI - when you sand your keg with 1000grit Wet-dry the water turns black. I would be suspicious that the rice is actually being abrasive to the inside of these mini-kegs.

(Note: I know this because I've been trying to polish my corny kegs :D )
 
malt & barley blues said:
I think you may be onto something there WEAL, there are a few articles about chlorine, chloride and stainless steel, add to that overdoing it with Starsan i.e more than 300 ppm, mixing with tap water instead of RO or distilled and leaving on a surface longer than the 2 minutes as advised by 5 star chemicals.
Be keen to understand a bit more here, as I've been known to leave starsan in kegs overnight or sometimes longer after a clean between beers.

Wonder if I should stop doing this :p :p
 
malt & barley blues said:
.... and leaving on a surface longer than the 2 minutes as advised by 5 star chemicals.
Damn, I've overlooked that. I'll adjust my practices.

My comment above was that I'd left sanitiser (only a few ml) in the keg for a few months. Glad there was no damage at all.

Cheers
 
Just looked inside 3 of my 6 kegs with a borescope and can see dark burn marks where the handle is spot welded to the body - not shiny as the rest of the insides
The welds that join the top conical section to the main body are not uniform and look like they are hand welded
Also the insides are not polished but are the same brushed finish as the outside
My other 3 kegs are in use one storing a brew and another naturally carbonated. In the interest of science I will attempt to sample them in the next couple of days
My borescope has a video facility but haven't worked out how to capture that yet and have no clue as to how to post the video
 
grott said:
Bit confused, are we not talking about a problem with brand new kegs?
As an ex welder, mainly on gas lines, the weakest link is the weld, if a stainless weld is exposed for any length of time in acid it will be attacked, the mild steel exposed and deterioration speeds up, metallic taste, black coloring, after reading the information on s/steel chlorine and chloride, heat and pH levels, could this be the source of the problem?
It does make good reading, about something I believed was almost indestructible.
 
Parks said:
FYI - when you sand your keg with 1000grit Wet-dry the water turns black. I would be suspicious that the rice is actually being abrasive to the inside of these mini-kegs.

(Note: I know this because I've been trying to polish my corny kegs :D )
Yeah, but no, but yeah, but definitely no.

If the rice was so abrasive that it was removing enough solid metal to show discolouration, then repeating the process would continue to produce the same results - black water. It does not do that. A second rice rinse test performed straight after the first one will show significantly less discolouration. The questions is, will the black film come back after being exposed to air or beer for a few weeks?

I'd be also worried about the material if uncooked rice mixed with water could grind it. I certainly wouldn't expect solid 304 stainless steel to give way to rice.
 
Have we seen this film? I've seen rice juice.

Could it be from infection?
 
I left my rice solution in overnight. Will go and have another look shortly.
 
Zorco said:
Premature I would like to point out; we don't event know why it is doing what it's doing.
Yes agree, I did get a little caught up in all the hype. To be truthful I forgot about the white coloured rice juice too. Well it's been raining and my bar did open a little earlier than usual. :lol: :lol: :chug: :chug:
 
The whole idea with using rice grains is not to produce some kind of a reaction, but to provide some mild mechanical action against the surface film and to help wear it off. Rice just happens to be the most convenient thing around the house that is safe to use on food stuff, will fit inside and is about the right hardness.

You can try other things instead of rice if you like. Small lego pieces, ball bearings, bunch PET bottle tops, whatever will fit and cause some mechanical forces against the walls of the keg.
 
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