Mashed Grain And Displacement

[Dazza_devil]

I want to dunk sparge my grains in a seperate vessel and need to caclulate the maximum grain to water ratio I can use in my vessel.
Approximately how much water will my 3kg of grains displace if they are premashed?

 

[pk.sax]

As a rough guess, my 3 kilo grain waste could've fitted in a 2lt juice bottle.

Edit: After squeezing and draining.

 

[drew9242]

a wild stab in the dark i reckon 8-10L

 

[mika]

Can I mash it ?

3rd calculation down. I'm not sure how the calc works exactly, so you may have to experiment a little in case their calc is presuming you still lose 1L/kg, which you won't with pre-mashed grains.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Hmmm, looks like I'm not going to be able to dunk sparge in a 10 litre pot too well with 3 kg of grain.
According to that calculator I'll need 8 litres of space if I sparge with 2 litres/kg and that's most likely if the grain absorbs around 3 litres. So with pe-mashed grain I'd probably need around 11 litres of space, looks like I need to re-assess my procedure and utensils again.
Any ideas?

 

[pk.sax]

I had a 10.5 litre pot handy when I did my recent 3 kilo grain bill BIAB, after the squeeze by hand over pot, the grain bag fit nicely and took up a bit over half the volume. Or just get a 19 lt!

 

[Dazza_devil]

I had a 10.5 litre pot handy when I did my recent 3 kilo grain bill BIAB, after the squeeze by hand over pot, the grain bag fit nicely and took up a bit over half the volume. Or just get a 19 lt!

I'm tempted to get an el-cheapy 19 litre but if I can get around this without it I will.

What if I skip the sparge and just mash-out?
Add enough boiling water to my mash to hit 76 degrees(4.7 litres according to that calculator), do a bit of stirring and jiggling then give the bag a drain and squeeze, done and ready for the boil. I'd be happy with 70-75% efficiency with this method if I can get it.

 

[RdeVjun]

I agree Boagsy about the 10L vessel being just a bit too small for sparging, it only just fits and overflow is a common occurrence, so I split it into two mini- sparges of 2-3L each with a 4.5kg grainbill. For the 23L batches by stovetop BIAB method (link) perhaps the 12 or 15L nappy bucket would be better for the single sparge, still sticking with equipment which is commonly available.
You can skip the sparge and just add a mashout infusion, but there just may not be the room unless you mash with less water, which is OK too. What size vessel are you mashing in?
I'd be inclined to keep the first few simple with no mashout or sparging, so just do the straight full- volume vanilla BIAB, after that you'll suss these things out with your own kit for sure!
Hope it works out, good luck with it! :icon_cheers:
Ps. I happened to be in my local big double ewe the other day, still 20 clams for the 19L one, conveniently they were right next to the limited home brewing section.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I agree Boagsy about the 10L vessel being just a bit too small for sparging, it only just fits and overflow is a common occurrence, so I split it into two mini- sparges of 2-3L each with a 4.5kg grainbill. For the 23L batches by stovetop BIAB method (link) perhaps the 12 or 15L nappy bucket would be better for the single sparge, still sticking with equipment which is commonly available.
You can skip the sparge and just add a mashout infusion, but there just may not be the room unless you mash with less water, which is OK too. What size vessel are you mashing in?
I'd be inclined to keep the first few simple with no mashout or sparging, so just do the straight full- volume vanilla BIAB, after that you'll suss these things out with your own kit for sure!
Hope it works out, good luck with it! :icon_cheers:
Ps. I happened to be in my local big double ewe the other day, still 20 clams for the 19L one, conveniently they were right next to the limited home brewing section.

I've got a 32 litre pot to mash in which is probably a bit big for this batch but I'm lookin toward doing full volume smaller batches in it soon.
I could easily do a mash-out infusion in it but I have read that heating slowly to mash-out can result in a better beer. What sort of efficiency would I get with just a mash-out infusion, no sparge?
I know I can transfer the wort from my 3 litre/kg mash to the 10 litre pot after mashing and removing the bag, then do a 3 litre/kg sparge in the big pot, transfering the wort from my mash back to the big pot after this. I'll need another 10 litre plus vessel to heat my sparge water in unless I wait for it to heat in my big pot before sparging which will probably take longer than I want. This all seems like a bit of mucking around and you may be right, best to keep it simple for my first mash. I have my brewday planned for Thursday and will be putting my grain order in today so plently of time to get my method refined in theory.

 

[RdeVjun]

Ah, I see, that's a good size stockpot!
Dunno which would be better to be honest, Boagsy. I do know that the straight full- volume, no- sparge, no- mashout has given some fantastic results as far as efficiency goes, 80% in some cases, so you should come within cooee if your grain crush, mash chemistry and temperatures are right. I commonly get around 85% with sparging, but in all honesty higher efficiency isn't my main aim.
One other option is to use you domestic kettle/ jug to heat up several batches of water, put it in an insulated bucket and it won't cool down too much. When I do a double mini- sparge* in the 10 or 12L bucket, I just use the 1.75L kettle and do several batches, the first goes into the bucket, the grain bag dropped in, stir well and then add another batch of water. For the second sparge, just repeat, get 3- 4L each time and it just goes into the kettle on the stove.
I use water just off the boil by boiling the jug then adding a small amount from the tap to get it below boiling, acidifying it slightly with a pinch of citric acid or similar benign acidifier is helpful if your source water is known to be alkaline.

* Woah, 'double mini- sparge' that sounds complex! Its not really.

Hope this helps, good luck with it! :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

You have 32 pot and you are using 3kg of grain yes?

Unless for some reason you are trying to make more than 23L of beer... then all your grain and all your water will fit in your pot, you can do a normal no-sparge BIAB, and you dont need to worry about it at all.

All your water and all your grain, right at the start of the mash, mash for your hour, heat to 76 by constantly stirring, remove bag.

Done - no need to sparge in any way shape or form. And the heating to 76 step is something that will do your efficiency and your beer a little good, but you could skip it too without much issue.

I keep saying it, and if I keep saying it maybe one day people will listen.

BIAB was designed to be from the very start, and always has been - a method which simply does not need a sparge step of any description.

The only reason you might need to sparge... is if you don't have a big enough pot to put your full volume in. Then OK. But apart from that it is at best an optional extra, and at worst, primarily a waste of your time and effort.

If you want to sparge, well and good - more power to you. If you for some ungodly reason think you need to sparge... then aside from the pot size issue - you have been mislead.

 

[felten]

Word to TB, doing a mash out but no sparger here and 80% eff in the kettle on <5kg batches, and ~75% eff on larger 7kg batches.

 

[Dazza_devil]

You have 32 pot and you are using 3kg of grain yes?

Unless for some reason you are trying to make more than 23L of beer... then all your grain and all your water will fit in your pot, you can do a normal no-sparge BIAB, and you dont need to worry about it at all.

All your water and all your grain, right at the start of the mash, mash for your hour, heat to 76 by constantly stirring, remove bag.

Done - no need to sparge in any way shape or form. And the heating to 76 step is something that will do your efficiency and your beer a little good, but you could skip it too without much issue.

I keep saying it, and if I keep saying it maybe one day people will listen.

BIAB was designed to be from the very start, and always has been - a method which simply does not need a sparge step of any description.

The only reason you might need to sparge... is if you don't have a big enough pot to put your full volume in. Then OK. But apart from that it is at best an optional extra, and at worst, primarily a waste of your time and effort.

If you want to sparge, well and good - more power to you. If you for some ungodly reason think you need to sparge... then aside from the pot size issue - you have been mislead.

Thanks TB, I have come across one of your posts before regarding this and gave it some consideration. I do intend on doing full volume boils in my 32 litre pot but thought I would need a burner and have to no-chill in a cube, two issues I intend to address very soon hopefully. I will try a full volume no-sparge after I do and compare my efficiencies.
The reason that I wanted to sparge is probably out of habit. I have been doing it with my extract plus speciality grain brewing and noticed how colourful the resulting liquid was after a short 2 litre dunk sparge @ 70 degrees C. Colour and flavour was all I was extracting then so perhaps in the quest for increased efficiency the benefits are negligable with this method of brewing.
One question, when doing no-sparge full volume boils, are your hop utilisation rates calculated on pre or post boil SG's?

 

[dago001]

Hi Boagsy.
I think I can get where you are coming from. I went through all this when I started all grain brewing. Not much physical help available here on the coast, but plenty of help on AHB. I tried both methods, full batch - no sparge, and sparging. Both worked well, but I was (and still am) using my diy grain crusher. Took a while to get the crush right. My original brews were 65% efficiency sparge or no sparge. I realised that my crush was too coarse. I now crush at 0.9mm and get 85% efficiency.
A solution that I found for dunk sparging was using my 25 litre esky. I put the grain in the esky (still in the bag) and poured my sparge water over it. Dunked, squeezed etc, removed grain and poured resulting liquid into pot. Worked o.k. I don't brew like this anymore, but still do something similar.
If you need any help, just pm me. I'm having a brew day with Ianh on the 26th if your interested.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

You have 32 pot and you are using 3kg of grain yes?

Unless for some reason you are trying to make more than 23L of beer... then all your grain and all your water will fit in your pot, you can do a normal no-sparge BIAB, and you dont need to worry about it at all.

All your water and all your grain, right at the start of the mash, mash for your hour, heat to 76 by constantly stirring, remove bag.

Done - no need to sparge in any way shape or form. And the heating to 76 step is something that will do your efficiency and your beer a little good, but you could skip it too without much issue.

I keep saying it, and if I keep saying it maybe one day people will listen.

BIAB was designed to be from the very start, and always has been - a method which simply does not need a sparge step of any description.

The only reason you might need to sparge... is if you don't have a big enough pot to put your full volume in. Then OK. But apart from that it is at best an optional extra, and at worst, primarily a waste of your time and effort.

If you want to sparge, well and good - more power to you. If you for some ungodly reason think you need to sparge... then aside from the pot size issue - you have been mislead.

Well put. I do BIAB and I do sparge, but I will qualify it by saying I squeeze a few extra points out. I feel for me it is best practice and certainly if I ever decide to move away from BIAB, I want to understand the mechanics and theory of it in detail.

I also don't "reheat" on the stove, though I realise that some do. I will try step mashing once I get onto doing an ESB or something English styled, but at the moment my APA and AIPA are turning out well with it.

On the no chill side - I did a brew 2 weeks ago with no-chill - realistically because I didn't plan on doing it that day, just the weather that made it happen on that day. I ended up trying it on the weekend, and it is extremely bitter. I'd planned on about 38 IBU, but it would be well over 50. Which is fine, I'll just leave it condition in 2ndary and bottles longer and that'll mellow out.


Goomba