Mash Temps For High Gravity Belgians

[manticle]

I have a westmalle dubbel clone I've just stuck in the fridge for cold conditioning. The OG was around 1060 and close to a kilo of candi sugar was added after high krausen. I used 3787 which previous experience has shown to be a monster of a yeast.

For the last 3 weeks it has sat around 1020 (was hoping to get down to around 1015 or less. I've tried every stalled ferment trick in the book - rousing warming, racking, and recently adding a touch more fresh 3787 from a smacked and swelled pack, made into a small starter with some dme and a touch of dex. Still 1020 (obviously the dex and malt upped the points a touch but that has fermented out again back to the possibly FG).

She tastes great and will be my first AG version of this recipe (and the best one by a mile so far) but I'm wondering how to encourage better attenuation for my next one. I can't remember the actual mash temp I got but I'm fairly certain I would have mashed at the higher end (say 67) rather than the lower thinking malty sweet and body would be par for the course with candy to dry her out.

For my next one should I mash at 63-64? What do other brewers of successful dubbels and tripels do? I brewed a chimay white clone recently that got to about 1012 - abv would be similar if not higher but mash temp escapes me (yes manticle take better notes you goose).

Anyway - interested in others' ideas and experiences with this kind of brewing. Brew like a monk gives basic grain bills and ferment times but no mash temp for trappists.

 

[AndrewQLD]

My Belgian Strong Toasted Golden Ale started life out at 1.084 and finished at 1.014, t-58 yeast, 20% sugar and a mash temp of 64.
I think you'll probably find your mash temp was too high as you have surmised but it will still be a nice beer.
If I were you I would rack of the cake and leave for another couple of weeks, sometimes these yeasts will continue to chew through the sugars but very slowly.

Andrew

 

[manticle]

I think I've actually racked twice now. She's given me absolutely nothing besides eating the small amount of sugar I put in with the extra yeast. With all the samples and racking and an originally vigorous boil I think I have only ~15 litres left. I do want to avoid bottle bombs but I get the feeling she's not stalled, she's done.

That said if people who know more than me (like yourself) reckon a bit more time is worth it, I'll pull her out of the fridge.

Next time I'll aim for 64. Cheers.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Well it does sound like it's finished manticle.
Why don't you bottle and let carb at room temp for 2 weeks then store the bottles at fridge temps, it matures the beer beautifully and you won't run the risk of bottle bombs.
I had mine maturing this way for 8 months and the difference between a 1 mth old bottle and an 8 mth one is amazing.

Andrew

 

[manticle]

Could be a goer. I'll have to rearrange my fridge a bit but for once I'd actually like to try and age at least a few bottles.

Hopeless at it.

 

[b_thomas]

Also had some problems with 3787, it's definitely a monster but found it didn't quite chew through all I had fed it.

Trying all sorts of different things to get the sweetness (genuine sugariness) out of it, last week has been rocking and raising the temperature.

 

[adurst]

aerate and mash at alow/dry beer temp 63ish

 

[Sammus]

Yeah I'd mash a bit lower. Don't go too crazy though, my last one I mashed at 65C and aerated the bugger out of, 3787 got it from 1.081 to 1.011. Interesting yours still didnt get further with incremental feeding, as I understand that will increase your attenuation, and 3787 always seems to take things too far, ie attenuate way too much.

 

[newguy]

I've had a few stuck fermentations and if the yeast is capable of chewing up a few more sugars, this trick usually gets them to do it. Put 3-5 tsp of yeast nutrient along with 1 tsp of diammonium phosphate into a microwave safe measuring cup along with about 1 cup of water and nuke the works for a good 60 seconds after it comes to a boil. It will boil over so watch it carefully, stopping and restarting the microwave as necessary. Add the mixture to the fermenter while it's still hot, then give the fermenter a gentle swirl before putting the lid/airlock back. The hot mixture will form a vacuum as it cools and it will suck your airlock dry if you don't swirl it.

I've seen quite a few different looking things labelled "yeast nutrient" in HBS. The stuff you want is the beige powder. Diammonium phosphate (DAP) looks like slightly clumpy salt and most HBS stock it. Some yeast nutrients have DAP already but adding a bit of pure DAP always seems to work better for me.

 

[brettprevans]

i agree with all of the above comments based on what ive read in Brew like a monk. the only think left you could do to increease attenutation with this beer is to throw some orval dregs or simialr in there and let it rip through the last bit of it. failing that, let it condition a while longer and just drink and enjoy

 

[manticle]

Orval, while delicious, would change the yeast profile.

Something I was reading yesterday on here in regardst to wyeast brett suggested brett was pretty hard to remove from your equipment too.

Despite being 1020, it does have a nice balance between malty and dry, it's not cloying like some extract dubbels that I made and the lovely raisiny goodness from 3787 is coming through. The candy sugar gives it a nice element too. I'm pretty happy with it - my two main concerns are avoiding any bombs (but I'm pretty certain it's done fermenting after the extra yeast addition stopped at the same point) and tweaking the recipe/process for next time.

I love dubbels so the manticle brewery is going to be brewing a few a year.

 

[peter.brandon]

I have a westmalle dubbel clone I've just stuck in the fridge for cold conditioning. The OG was around 1060 and close to a kilo of candi sugar was added after high krausen. I used 3787 which previous experience has shown to be a monster of a yeast.

Can i ask does everyone make their own candi sugar (i.e. make a toffee with cane sugar with citic acid) or does everyone buy the origional beet candi sugar?

The reason i ask is i just make an AG 9% Duval clone and used 2kg of candi sugar i made myself as i have done for the last few years but i have never used the imported beet candi sugar.

Is the imported beet candi sugar massively different from the home made stuff?

What is the max amount of candi sugar you should use? (i.e. i used 2kg and after being in the bottle 7 weeks it has a funky taste ... could be it just need more time?)

Cheers,
Pete

 

[brettprevans]

up to 15% of total bill is ok (from what ive read)
as to whether people make their own or buy it. probably a mixture of both.

 

[manticle]

Supposedly some Belgian breweries might use up to 20% from memory. 2kg sounds like a lot to me.

I've always made my own. One day I'll try the commercial stuff but whether from beet or cane it's the same chemical structure so I'm unsure why it's so expensive and how it could make a difference.

Can't say that definitely till I've tried it though.

 

[warrenlw63]

The reason i ask is i just make an AG 9% Duval clone and used 2kg of candi sugar i made myself as i have done for the last few years but i have never used the imported beet candi sugar.
Pete

Pete you could probably save yourself the trouble and just use dextrose (which is what Duvel use). My guess is that caramelised sugar to any level will probably be too dark for what you're trying to achieve.

From memory it's around 15% of the fermentables.

Warren -

 

[peter.brandon]

Pete you could probably save yourself the trouble and just use dextrose (which is what Duvel use). My guess is that caramelised sugar to any level will probably be too dark for what you're trying to achieve.

From memory it's around 15% of the fermentables.

Warren -

Thanks Warren

 

[Mayo]

Quick question
When i made some Candi Sugar, I added it during the boil so it would liquify into the brew. When you say you added it after ferment, did you add it to the fermenter as whole chunks of hard candi, or did you boil it down somehow? I figuered that adding 1 litre of boiling sugar/water to a fermented beer wouldnt be the best for it.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[beersom]

My Belgian Strong Toasted Golden Ale started life out at 1.084 and finished at 1.014, t-58 yeast,

Andrew

That was T-58 ???????
cant help but be shocked.....
Shit that was a good beer!!!!

 

[AndrewQLD]

That was T-58 ???????
cant help but be shocked.....
Shit that was a good beer!!!!

Despite the fact I used T-58? :lol: :lol:

 

[brettprevans]

i used a blend of T58 and recultered chimay yeast (mainly t58) in my last belgian and it was outstanding. its a great little yeast. i also used T58 in a cider a did and used a technique for champaihgn making to get those lovely champaigne yeast flavours.....the cider ended up having those desired flavours. i love t58