Mash Temp And Fg

[Darren]

Darren, you are attempting once again to rewrite many hundreds of years of brewing practice with your ill informed comments. The best thing you have said tonight is to "take it with a bit of salt" Sound advise, but PLEASE stop alarming the newer mash brewers witrh this pedantic enzyme denaturing nonsense of yours. It simply does not happen in practice. Go ask any pro or micro brewer.... Jeez!

Wes

[post="129468"][/post]​

So Wes,
These micro brewers dump grain into water?

cheers
Darren

 

[Guest Lurker]

Yeah, but you have to remember that it is Friday night, which is when Darren used to like to play "Collect all the threads". Now the site is too busy that is almost impossible (although I reckon maybe he could do it), so he has to play "Stir up the brewers" instead.

 

[Darren]

Yeah, but you have to remember that it is Friday night, which is when Darren used to like to play "Collect all the threads". Now the site is too busy that is almost impossible (although I reckon maybe he could do it), so he has to play "Stir up the brewers" instead.

[post="129478"][/post]​

Hey guest,
Why not stir em up. Keeps open debate which people like Wes donot like because he has been taught nothing but listens to yes men.

cheers

Darren

 

[Mr Bond]

Heres my 2c worth.

Darren and Wes(especially), you guys have the experience and knowledge that exceeds and takes it to another level in terms of average home brewers.

Wes ,your experience as an importer and malt dealer are worth a million $$$,not to mention your brewing experience and contact with micro breweries aus wide.

As a brewer of 7 years(extracts etc...) with only 12 AG's under the belt,I would like to say to all you potential AG'ers out there that in my (very humble) experience basic mashing will make a superb beer. I mash at 65/66C for 75 mins and batch sparge in a very basic(simple) system,and find that this gives me a clean,simple malt profile with a mouthfeel slightly fuller than a commercial beer but still on the lighter side an extract brew.Perfect for my palate.
Technically its great to know/learn all the finer points ,but don't get bogged down or intimidated by all the finer points of advanced brewing techniQues,when great beers can be made in such a simple fashion.

I heat my strike water to 72c ish and add the grains to achieve a strike temp of 65/66c and let it mash for 75 mins with a 1c loss over this time. Never had a dough ball and am making beers with a malt flava and profile that i never could have achieved with extracts.

"Keep It Simple Stupid " is my maxim.

Dave

 

[Darren]

Darren

Either way the first grains wetted will receive the higher temp and the addition of further grain will reduce the water temp just by its volume.



Thats my grain of salt FWIW.

Cheers, Hogan.

[post="129475"][/post]​

Hogan,
Not correct Hoges,
The first water in underletting will first take the "cool" from the tun then hit the grain.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried underletting?

cheers

Darren

 

[MHB]

Darren
Sorry (feeling or expressing regret for an action that has upset or inconvenienced somebody, or for a similar future action )
I should have been more explicit (expressing all details in a clear and obvious way, leaving no doubt as to the intended meaning ).
I was referring to critical (extremely important because of being a time or happening at a time of special difficulty, trouble, or danger, when matters could quickly get either worse or better ) INFORMATION (the collected facts and data about a particular subject ) regarding OPTIMUM (most desirable or favourable ) temperatures (the heat of something measured on a particular scale such as the Fahrenheit or Celsius scale.), not information about the critical temperatures at which enzymes (a complex protein produced by living cells that promotes a specific biochemical reaction by acting as a catalyst ) degrade.

I will try (transitive and intransitive verb to make an effort or an attempt to do or achieve something ) to do better in future

MHB (a guy that is sick of your shit )

 

[wessmith]

Actually Darren I am the "Yes Man" I am the guy that designs the recipe and then recommends that the new brewery owner commit a quarter of a ton of grain to his mash tun. The result is on my head. And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.

Go stir the pot on some other forum mate - you are a classic PITB

Wes

 

[Darren]

Actually Darren I am the "Yes Man" I am the guy that designs the recipe and then recommends that the new brewery owner commit a quarter of a ton of grain to his mash tun. The result is on my head. And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.

Go stir the pot on some other forum mate - you are a classic PITB

Wes

[post="129486"][/post]​

OK Wes,
Take it up one step! Do Macro breweries add DRY malt to their water? Mr Yes man.

cheers

Darren

 

[stephen]

The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.

Your enzymes are the same. The initial shock of a higher temp water is like your finger passing through the flame - a fleeting heat if any! Why do you think that when you mash out, you mash out for several minutes? Same as leaving your finger in the flame - the heat comes into effect.

My rant!!!

Steve

 

[Mr Bond]

. And we ALWAYS add grain to water in our micros.

[post="129486"][/post]​

And suddenly i don't feel so unprofessional :blink: .GT(tdh) showed me the basics @ a demo and its worked a treat for me,and he's a micro brewer of very tasty beers.

 

[Darren]

The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.

Your enzymes are the same. The initial shock of a higher temp water is like your finger passing through the flame - a fleeting heat if any! Why do you think that when you mash out, you mash out for several minutes? Same as leaving your finger in the flame - the heat comes into effect.

My rant!!!

Steve

[post="129492"][/post]​

Stephen, that is correct.
But if you were to firstly malt your fingers then crush them into small pieces the relative enzymes would be exposed to all enviromental insults more readily.

A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.

This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.

cheers

Darren

 

[stephen]

The "water to grain," or "grain to water" will only affect the enzymes if you don't mix your mash and leave hot spots. The enzymes are like your fingers: You can pass them through a candle flame and not get burnt or hurt. Leave your finger in the flame a little longer and then you will really start to feel the heat - leave your finger in the flame and it will burn.

Your enzymes are the same. The initial shock of a higher temp water is like your finger passing through the flame - a fleeting heat if any! Why do you think that when you mash out, you mash out for several minutes? Same as leaving your finger in the flame - the heat comes into effect.

My rant!!!

Steve

[post="129492"][/post]​

Stephen, that is correct.
But if you were to firstly malt your fingers then crush them into small pieces the relative enzymes would be exposed to all enviromental insults more readily.

A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.

This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.

cheers

Darren

[post="129497"][/post]​

Darren

Have a search for and look at the malting process and the temps involved and let me know how either amylase survives. The grains are cured at temps from about 80-85 deg C.

Steve

 

[Mr Bond]

A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.

This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.

cheers

Darren

[post="129497"][/post]​

In that contextis it really relevant to the average Home brewer(masher) as a %age improvement in end product.Or is it all a pointless my kowledge is better than your knowledge debate (EGO)

 

[Darren]

A small piece of malt will instantly become the temp it hits. You only need to look at the inactivation temps for b-amylase to see it is instantly dead at 70+.

This is not scare mongering as Wes would like you to believe but more a scientific observation.
No need to worry about it just something you need to be aware of.

cheers

Darren

[post="129497"][/post]​

In that contextis it really relevant to the average Home brewer(masher) as a %age improvement in end product.Or is it all a pointless my kowledge is better than your knowledge debate (EGO)

[post="129503"][/post]​

Brau,

Bit of both I suspect. A bit of knowledge cannot hurt. Rather than blind faith.

cheers

Darren

 

[vlbaby]

Darren,
Even if your idea is correct and the enzymes in the first grains are instantly denatured, who cares? There is more than enough surviving enzymes left in the bulk of the remaining grain to do the job of converting starches to sugars. What overall difference can it honestly make?

If killing a few enzymes presented a problem then decoction mashing would never work.

vl.

 

[stephen]

Further to my post above re the curing of grains during the malting process, the grains are helad at 80-85 deg C from 4-48 hours.

I still want to know how a couple seconds or maybe a minute is really going to hurt?

Over to you Darren, and yes I can reference my information.

regards

Steve

 

[Darren]

Darren,
Even if your idea is correct and the enzymes in the first grains are instantly denatured, who cares? There is more than enough surving enzymes left in the bulk of the remaining grain to do the job of converting starches to sugars. What overall difference can it honestly make?

If killing a few enzymes presented a problem then decoction mashing would never work.

vl.

[post="129510"][/post]​

vl,

I guess the difference it makes is, firstly efficiency, secondly the profile of the resulting beer. I bet fifty cents (yes some scottish heritage) that micro breweries have lower strike temps than the average homebrewer.
Finally, decoction works because you mash in (BTW 80% of the work is done in 10 minutes), then draw the thick mash (mainly grain) and boil then add it back to the soluble (liquid phase) enzymes.

What you are forgetting is that although the mash takes you 60-90 minutes is actually over in 10-20 minutes.

If you don't believe me just check it at 1, 2, 5, 10 and twenty miniute intervals. If needed plot the graph. Doesn't change much after 20 minutes.

cheers

Darren

 

[Mr Bond]

What you are forgetting is that although the mash takes you 60-90 minutes is actually over in 10-20 minutes.

Doesn't change much after 20 minutes.

cheers

Darren

[post="129516"][/post]​

[/quote

So does that mean you only mash your grains 4, 20 mins and then sparge Darren.?
I sure would like to remove 55 minutes from my brewday and not sacrifice any efficiency!

 

[tangent]

actually, there's been talk between a lot of brewers that do iodine tests that prove highly modified malts convert during a very short time

but, yeah witch witch etc...

 

[Darren]

For me, time isn't really all that a big an issue, plus i like to extract that last little bit (read more glasses of beer).

Check your gravity readings yourself. You will see after half an hour there is a slight but insignificant difference to conversion.

cheers

Darren