Mash rest temperature for foam

[Nizmoose]

Hey guys just wanted to clear this up, I keep hearing about two different temperatures for a foam positive mash step and would like to know the difference between the two. People on here mention 72C and I've read in other places between 50 and 60C.What are the differences?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

50-60 is a protein rest , this breaks dont large proteins to smaller proteins which is good in some respects but mostly I would focus at 72C.
Nev

 

[Black n Tan]

The protein rest can be divided into two regions. At the lower end (less than 52C) peptidases are favoured and breakdown mid-molecular weight proteins into smaller polypeptides. At above 52C, proteases are favoured and breakdown large proteins into mid-molecular weigh proteins. Mid-molecular weight proteins are good for head retention, so a short rest above 52C (I use 55C for 5 minutes) may be desirable for head retention. The rest at 72C is a glycoprotein rest. Glycoproteins are good for head retention. I assume that this rest favours the formation of mid-molecular weight glycoproteins to assist head retention, but I am not certain on the process. Hope that helps.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Most malts dont require the protein rest thats why I had skipped over it but a good explanation.
Nev

 

[Nizmoose]

Okay thanks guys! So the way I'm seeing it as my plan was to mash in at 66C it's fine to ignore the lower protein rest and do a 66 then ramp up to 72 before mash out?

 

[Black n Tan]

It seems the 72C glycoprotein rest is about releasing glycoproteins, rather than their degradation into smaller fragments.

 

[Nizmoose]

It seems the 72C glycoprotein rest is about releasing glycoproteins, rather than their degradation into smaller fragments.

Ahhh this makes sense!

 

[manticle]

Nizmoose - I do a very short rest at 55 (highest end of the range for a protein rest). I do this for 5 minutes.
After my saccharification rest, I do a 10 minute glycoprotein rest at 72.

Glyco rest does help with head formation and retention - a nice, tight, dense, lingering foam but in my experience, the two rests have an even better result when used in conjunction. Beers can be carbed english style and still form a dense head that lasts and laces.

 

[Crusty]

Nizmoose - I do a very short rest at 55 (highest end of the range for a protein rest). I do this for 5 minutes.
After my saccharification rest, I do a 10 minute glycoprotein rest at 72.

Glyco rest does help with head formation and retention - a nice, tight, dense, lingering foam but in my experience, the two rests have an even better result when used in conjunction. Beers can be carbed english style and still form a dense head that lasts and laces.

Pretty much the same here.
52deg for 5mins, 66deg for 90mins, 72deg for 10mins & 78deg for 10mins.
Head retentention & stability is better with the temperature hold @72deg.

 

[Nizmoose]

Nizmoose - I do a very short rest at 55 (highest end of the range for a protein rest). I do this for 5 minutes.
After my saccharification rest, I do a 10 minute glycoprotein rest at 72.

Glyco rest does help with head formation and retention - a nice, tight, dense, lingering foam but in my experience, the two rests have an even better result when used in conjunction. Beers can be carbed english style and still form a dense head that lasts and laces.

Thanks Manticle I assumed you'd spread your wisdom on this thread at some point, Looks like I'll do a 55 rest at the start. Time to mention now I am planning my first AG and its going to be a 10L batch on my 3 ring burner and 19L Big W pot. Now in terms of raising my mash temp what is preferred practice; infusing with hot water or simply using the burner to ramp up temp or can I use a combination? (eg hot water for lower steps like 55-66 then burner for 72 to mashout)

 

[QldKev]

Just remember you cant make the sugar chains longer. So too long of a rest at the lower temps can make later rests worthless. I do the same as manticle, 55c for 5mins and straight up to the next step. But the main work is done at 72c

 

[Nizmoose]

Just remember you cant make the sugar chains longer. So too long of a rest at the lower temps can make later rests worthless. I do the same as manticle, 55c for 5mins and straight up to the next step.

Really good tip thanks mate

 

[MartinOC]

Now in terms of raising my mash temp what is preferred practice; infusing with hot water or simply using the burner to ramp up temp or can I use a combination? (eg hot water for lower steps like 55-66 then burner for 72 to mashout)

Thick mashes are better for protein rests, thin ones are better for saccharification, so a hot liquour addition to step-up is a great regime. Of course, you can do a combination of infusion & burner-ramps. Whatever takes your fancy. It all works.

 

[manticle]

As big a fan as I am of step mashing I would suggest for your first AG (or your second if you are hellbent) that you stay simple and single infuse at 65 so you have a point of reference. Step mashing is easy, ag is easy, decoction is easy but knowing what and why are really important things for successful happy brewing.

It's not so much about baby steps or run before you can walk - it's simply understanding how the theory reveals itself in practice and to do that, you need benchmarks.

To directly answer your question though I have ramped, infused and decocted to whichever step and found similar results. The main difference is decoction and only in terms of toasty melanoiden yum flavours. Attenuation, body, finish all anecdotally similar.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Really its about understanding the basic science and then applying it practically.
You aint going to learn it quickly from here but some brewing experience and a good pallet will get you on the way.
Nev

 

[Nizmoose]

As big a fan as I am of step mashing I would suggest for your first AG (or your second if you are hellbent) that you stay simple and single infuse at 65 so you have a point of reference. Step mashing is easy, ag is easy, decoction is easy but knowing what and why are really important things for successful happy brewing.

It's not so much about baby steps or run before you can walk - it's simply understanding how the theory reveals itself in practice and to do that, you need benchmarks.

To directly answer your question though I have ramped, infused and decocted to whichever step and found similar results. The main difference is decoction and only in terms of toasty melanoiden yum flavours. Attenuation, body, finish all anecdotally similar.

Really its about understanding the basic science and then applying it practically.
You aint going to learn it quickly from here but some brewing experience and a good pallet will get you on the way.
Nev

Completely agree with you guys and I really am not the jump in the deep end sort of person but I do read and read and read before I do things and I never do things before I know as much as I feel I can about the process. My other hobby is cars and my study science so I guess it comes from that. With a car I really don't like touching things until I know all about what I'm pulling apart. I do the same for brewing and it has served me well. My first batch ever by myself was an extract batch with a hop boil and steeping grains. A lot of people don't recommend jumping ahead like that but the amount of research I did before made me feel I knew what I was doing and more importantly why. To date its the best batch I've made. Also I agree with the practical experience thing as well but as I research more on mash temps I think I'll be happy to give three steps a go for my first AG. I don't like doing it the easy way if I know I can do it the better way I guess

 

[manticle]

Go for it mate. Just try a single infusion at some point so you understand the practical difference.

 

[Nizmoose]

Cheers for the advice manticle I definitely will do it hopefully to a similar recipe to see the difference, I did my batch today, first AG and I did my steps almost perfectly, missed the 72 degree by 2. Threads here if anyones interested

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83524-nizmoose-makes-the-ag-leap/page-2#entry1237777

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Go for it mate. Just try a single infusion at some point so you understand the practical difference.

Yep. The only way to learn.

And only make 1 or 2 changes next time, be that ingredients or mash schedule. That way you will get a good idea of how simple change will affect your beer.

Even the diff from mashing at 65*c to 68-69*c can change your beer noticably