Making A Starter Before Smack Pack Has Swollen

[afromaiko]

Is it ok to make a starter from a Wyeast smack pack before it's fully swollen?

I'm making a lager using 2007 Pilsner and have an urgent need to pitch a second yeast because the previous one hasn't started after 4 days at ~10*C.. no sign of any activity at all.

I bought another smack pack today and smacked it a few hours ago. I'm wondering if I just add the pack now to a 750ml bottle with some cooled, boiled water and a heaped tablespoon of light dry malt? I'd like to try to pitch the starter in the next 24 hours, and don't have time to propagate & split it so will just use the whole pack in this brew.

Would there be any problems doing this?

Thanks,
Afromaiko

 

[dicko]

Is it ok to make a starter from a Wyeast smack pack before it's fully swollen?

I'm making a lager using 2007 Pilsner and have an urgent need to pitch a second yeast because the previous one hasn't started after 4 days at ~10*C.. no sign of any activity at all.

I bought another smack pack today and smacked it a few hours ago. I'm wondering if I just add the pack now to a 750ml bottle with some cooled, boiled water and a heaped tablespoon of light dry malt? I'd like to try to pitch the starter in the next 24 hours, and don't have time to propagate & split it so will just use the whole pack in this brew.

Would there be any problems doing this?

Thanks,
Afromaiko

Yes you can do that.
Once, I accidentally stuck a hole in a Wyeast yeast pack with a pair of scissors(long story) so I tipped the yeast including the contents of the "cherry", into a 1/2 litre starter and it cranked up in a day or so and was fine. I built it up then split it and got 6 samples for future starters from it.
If it is a blue pack, you can probably pitch it immediatly afer the starter shows activity.
If it is the smaller gold pack, I would step it up prior to pitching assuming your wort size is 22 litres or bigger.
Cheers

 

[Ross]

What was the score with the first yeast addition? did you pitch something showing no signs of life?

If your first starter had activity, be patient, I guarentee it'll fire. Lager yeasts like 2007, can appear to be doing very little...

cheers Ross

 

[afromaiko]

Just getting 'started' with the liquid yeasts. Didn't make a starter since used a smack pack with an ale before and didn't have any trouble. The 2007 pack didn't swell much over 24 hours but yes I pitched it anyway.

Learning a lesson here that lagers can be a bit more picky to get going so have just made up a starter with the new pack, and will continue to do that from now on.

Main trouble has been planning ahead for a specific brew day - it's usually been a case of ending up with some free time one arvo and getting stuck in there and then.

Thanks
Afromaiko

 

[pint of lager]

Yeast always run to their timetable, not yours.

If the first pack was swollen when you pitched it, all will be fine. Lagers are slower and also don't throw the huge krausen that you are used to with ales. Like Ross said, be patient.

Lagers ferment slower, divide at half the rate as ales and show little krausen. You need twice the volume of starter that you usually pitch for ales. 5% volume for ales, 10% for lagers. So if you have a 23 litre brew, you need a starter of 2 litres for a lager.

If the second pack was not swollen, it is not ready to use and I would not be trying to make a starter with it, till there was obvious signs of swelling. Unless you stabbed it with scissors like Dicko did.

Best idea is to have at least one pack of dried in a ziplock plastic bag in thefridge, that way you always have a backup. You can easily select when you want to brew.

Or, smack the pack well in advance, then step it up the day before brewday, that way you have some control over the yeast so that it is active and rearing to go.

The ratio for DME to water is 100 gms DME per litre to give an sg of 1.040.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Yes, I agree about lager yeasts. Just had an experience of having to wait several days for some starters of an oldish (9 months) Wyeast Budvar Lager to come to life. The pack did not swell after a couple of days but I added it to 2L of starter wort anyway, and that then took a good 24 (or was it 36?) hours to show any sign of life. They finally came good though and despite needing to postpone one brewing session for a couple of days, there are now three brews fermenting with this yeast -- two brewed by me and one by a friend.

In conclusion, it is better to prepare lager yeast starters well in advance and have them ferment out and then reactivate them rather than to try to pop the pack a short time before your scheduled brew day. You do have to be prepared to wait.

 

[pint of lager]

Rules of liquid yeast work.

1. Use wort of sg 1.030 -1.040. for 1.040 use 100gms DME per litre. Aeration is important, you are aiming for healthy yeast growth, not beer production.

2. Be as aseptic as possible (as close to sterile as possible.) Take great care with very small amounts of yeast and wort transfer.

3. The smaller the quantity of yeast, the smaller the starter.

4. The older the yeast, the smaller the starter.

5. Once you have your small wort actively fementing, step up in scales of 10, for instance, 100ml is stepped up to 1,000 ml.

6. For ales you need an active starter of volume 5% of your wort. So if your batch size is 23 litres, you need a starter of 1.175 litres, most people aim for at least a litre. Lagers are slower to multiply and ferment, they need double, or 10% of your wort size. If making a stronger og brew, consider using fresh yeast slurry from a previous brew.

Aim to have your final step close to the volume needed.

7. Consider using a good quality yeast nutrient blend in your starters (not just plain diammonium phosphate, something that has lots of trace elements). Healthy parents have healthy children. Make sure you use the correct does, too much micronutrients can be harmful to your yeast.

8. Every time you work with yeast, sniff it and if possible, pour some into a glass and taste it. This way, you have an understanding as to whether the flavour/aroma is funky infected or funky hard working yeast.

 

[BenH]

Main trouble has been planning ahead for a specific brew day - it's usually been a case of ending up with some free time one arvo and getting stuck in there and then.

I'm new to liquid yeasts, and also new to the no chill method, but I used the 'no chill' on the weekend - so I could wait for the starter to get ready - one way to get around the planning thing. (I normally work out a brew a couple of days beforehand, not enough time for a starter to really get stepped up).

POL, thanks for the above, very informative to a new liquid user.

:chug:

BenH.

 

[afromaiko]

5. Once you have your small wort actively fementing, step up in scales of 10, for instance, 100ml is stepped up to 1,000 ml

Excellent info!

Is there any similar rule for when it comes time to use split & stored yeast too?

Say I have a stubby of around 300ml in the fridge. Can I step this straight up to a 2L starter? Going by the rule above, the actual yeast (sediment?) is probably only going to be about 20ml or so isn't it?

Do we just discard the liquid from the top of the stubby and use only the sediment as a base for our starter? So in this case, does that mean I have to step up to 200ml, then can step up to 2L.

Can stepping up all be done in the same 2L bottle, or do I need to use a smaller bottle with less air space first then transfer to a larger one? In that case it seems all I'd need to do is pour in some more wort?

thanks!

 

[chillamacgilla73]

Great informative post POL.

If you don't have yeast nutrient: Boil ~1 teaspoon of bakers yeast per 2lt of starter water for 20 minutes to kill the yeast, check the water volume, add the DME and boil for further 10-15 minutes. I am of the belief that dead/lysed yeast cells would provide some nutrients although the proteins would be denatured(Damaged/broken into amino acids).

I also add ~ 1 tablespoon of bakers yeast at the start of the full wort boil for added yeast nutrients.

Cheers

 

[pint of lager]

Is there any similar rule for when it comes time to use split & stored yeast too?

That comes back to the volume of slurry and the age. A small amount of slurry only, say 10ml really needs a small volume, 200ml would be the max I would go for. If it is less than a month old, then, you could go for 500ml.

Say I have a stubby of around 300ml in the fridge. Can I step this straight up to a 2L starter? Going by the rule above, the actual yeast (sediment?) is probably only going to be about 20ml or so isn't it?

An old starter of 300ml should not be immediately stepped up to 2 litres. The rule of 10's only applies to actively fermenting starters. Old starters need to start small. Because your stubby of starter is probably very clean, you could boil and cool 200ml of wort, open the stubby, pour off the waste beer, wipe the mouth of the bottle with a strong bleach solution, use a sanitised funnel to pour in the fresh wort, wipe the mouth again, fit sanitised bung and airlock and shake gently. Every time you walk past the bench, gently shake the bottle, when it shows signs of fermenting (solid airlock movement, foam, krausen) then step up in 10's.

Do we just discard the liquid from the top of the stubby and use only the sediment as a base for our starter? So in this case, does that mean I have to step up to 200ml, then can step up to 2L.

Yes, you have the correct ideas.

Can stepping up all be done in the same 2L bottle, or do I need to use a smaller bottle with less air space first then transfer to a larger one? In that case it seems all I'd need to do is pour in some more wort?

So long as the 2 litre bottle is well sanitised, yes, you can use the same bottle.

For example, I use yeast from a petri dish. The first step is into a 100ml erlenmeyer flask with 50ml of wort which was pressure cooked with the mouth covered in foil. This means the very first step is into sterile medium plus is carried out as aseptically as I can achieve at home. The transfer is done on a heavily sanitised surface next to a flame, all surfaces are swabbed with a strong bleach solution, hands are washed thoroughly, transfer wire is flamed, breath is held and yeast is removed from petri to erlenmeyer flask. Once this is actively going, it is poured into a 5 litre demijohn with stir bar and stepped up to 500ml, then stepped up to 4 litres. This proceedure has been slowly built up from lots of information on the internet and lots of help and input from many brewers.

For any budding liquid yeast user, have a go with some Coopers. All you need is a bung that will fit the neck of a standard beer bottle. Everything else you should have already. Funnel, saucepan, DME, measuring jugs.

Many people use dried yeast as nutrient, but have spoken to experienced brewers who tell me it is a not very good nutrient. For instance, boiled humans is not a balanced meal for other humans.

 

[afromaiko]

Thanks, that's helped clear things up a lot.

Couple of other questions I'd like to ask if you don't mind.

Can I use a smaller bottle to store my yeast? I'm thinking something around 100ml. Before splitting the yeast, if I let the big starter bottle sit in the fridge for a day or so the yeast should pretty much fall to bottom.

So then all I would need do is leave a little bit of liquid on top to shake up and mix the yeast into and pour this into my small bottles so when it settles there is still some liquid covering the yeast. Does this sound ok?

Are clear bottles safe to use, or are amber (light proof) bottles best? Since it would be kept in the fridge it may get exposed to light occasionally, but not really much more that a few mins a day, and definitely not direct sunlight.

My fridge is pretty small and full of food, and I can store only a few 375ml stubbies, but if I could use something like ~100ml (or even less?) specimen containers they I should have enough room for dozens.

I'm having trouble understanding why it's necessary to use a stubby when you've got a tiny layer of yeast in the bottom few mm deep and the rest taken up by liquid. I guess maybe because people like to split the yeast quickly after fermenting while a lot of it is still in suspension and don't want to leave it flocculate in the fridge for a few days?

 

[Trough Lolly]

Many people use dried yeast as nutrient, but have spoken to experienced brewers who tell me it is a not very good nutrient. For instance, boiled humans is not a balanced meal for other humans.

It's true that there are some excellent yeast nutrients out there, including of course, wort. Yeast cells hold a number of protein and amino acid based nutrients that become freed up, albiet violently, during a boil, but lets face it, you could simply leave the yeast out of the boil and probably do just as well at feeding the yeast.

As for the comparison with humans, that's like saying all organic compost heaps are useless... <_<

Cheers,
TL