Lost a few batches already to what I think is astringency. Is my Coron

[loco88]

So I'm at my wits end, I thought I'd solved my problem but early taste tests indicate I haven't. I BIAB and my timeline with this setup goes like this:

Beer 1: Bought milled grain from LHBS. what was meant to be a 7ish% Saison ended up something like 3%. Brewhouse efficiency was at 49%
Got a Corona mill to try and tweak. Mucked around with it and some Pils malt and found a setting to get 69%.
Beer 2: Undrinkable. What I think is astringency but I can't be sure as I'm unfamiliar with actually tasting that sorta stuff.
Beer 3: Same god-awful flavour.
Beer 4: Adjusted the mill so that it wasn't grinding so finely, figured I'd sacrifice some ABV in order to make it drinkable. Early taste tests (it's not yet carbed) suggest that it's better, but that flavour is still there.

So basically I'm thinking that it's me or my mill. Seems like when I widen the gap on the mill way too much grain goes through untouched, but I don't know what to do. Also I use 5-Star 5.2 because I don't have the equipment or knowledge to be mucking about with my water chemistry.

Any suggestions for how I can figure this out? What can I do? Has anyone been brewing successfully with a Corona mill? I have the unmilled grain at home for an APA but I really don't want another batch of utter shit. Should I just buy my grain milled and accept whatever efficiency that gives me?

 

[antiphile]

I wouldn't be too surprised if you're dealing with 2 separate problems:
1. A problem with your mash efficiency and/or brewhouse efficiency; and
2. An infection of some sort causing the "god awful taste"

In terms of 2, one of the most common ones I've seen (and had the misfortune to experience) is acetobacter infection. The prime symptom of this one is a vinegar taste and smell. Does that sound familiar? If not, any more hints as to taste/smell/appearance etc? Does it happen in the FV or after being bottled/kegged?

 

[loco88]

I wouldn't be too surprised if you're dealing with 2 separate problems:
1. A problem with your mash efficiency and/or brewhouse efficiency; and
2. An infection of some sort causing the "god awful taste"

In terms of 2, one of the most common ones I've seen (and had the misfortune to experience) is acetobacter infection. The prime symptom of this one is a vinegar taste and smell. Does that sound familiar? If not, any more hints as to taste/smell etc?

Not sure what else I can do regarding 1; mashing typically at 66C and hoisting the bag up to drain for 10 while the water comes up to a boil and then squeezing the bag a little bit to get some excess out. I can accept less-than-great efficiency, but under 50% feels like too much.

I did think infection after beer 2, so I stepped up my sanitation game (I had a CFC which I converted to an immersion chiller as not being able to see what the wort was touching didn't sit right with me) and the only other thing I can think that's relevant is there's no smell to go along with this taste that I can detect. The fermenter & chamber smells normal for Beer 4, and Beer 3 smelled fine in the glass. I will do another test with Beer 3 from the bottle to confirm though if you think it's still a possibility.

 

[mxd]

A few Q's

Brewing experiance (kits for years years and there all great or the first 4 i've attempted I mentioned in first post)

Details of the BIAB equipment please (i.e 40 ltr urn...)

Do you chill or no chill

Oxengenate or notwh

at yeast and quantity

Fermentation temperature control do you have any ?

Recipe, where/how, what efficiency did you try for ?

As a starting point for a first BIAB I would look at a simple 4.5 kg of grain, 60% efficiency 30ish ibu. Get it milled from LHBS and tell them it's a BIAB

 

[mxd]

another option pop into the next melbourne brewers club meet with the beer and get some opinions of what is wrong with it.

 

[loco88]

A few Q's

Brewing experiance (kits for years years and there all great or the first 4 i've attempted I mentioned in first post)

Details of the BIAB equipment please (i.e 40 ltr urn...)

Do you chill or no chill

Oxengenate or notwh

at yeast and quantity

Fermentation temperature control do you have any ?

Recipe, where/how, what efficiency did you try for ?

As a starting point for a first BIAB I would look at a simple 4.5 kg of grain, 60% efficiency 30ish ibu. Get it milled from LHBS and tell them it's a BIAB

Experience: 2 kits, 2 ciders, 2 successful BIAB beers and 3 failures.
Equipment: 40L urn
Chill with an immersion chiller
No oxygenation, just shaking a bit
Yeast: A mixture. Some pitched with 1 vial of White labs, some pitched with starters (I eventually made a stir plate) some with US-05. The most recent was with US-05.
Temp Control: Had an STC-1000 wired to the fridge, 2 batches ago I implemented my BrewPi.
Recipe: Mostly clones, one of the failures was Dr Smurto's Golden Ale. Aimed at 70% efficiency.

Happy to take my remaining bag of grain to the LHBS, that's my next step if my process doesn't show anything obvious, as that will for sure tell me if it's the milling or not. I just don't want to waste it if it isn't!

another option pop into the next melbourne brewers club meet with the beer and get some opinions of what is wrong with it.

That sounds like a good option, I don't think I've described the flavour well at all...

 

[fraser_john]

Not sure what else I can do regarding 1; mashing typically at 66C and hoisting the bag up to drain for 10 while the water comes up to a boil and then squeezing the bag a little bit to get some excess out. I can accept less-than-great efficiency, but under 50% feels like too much.
<snip>

No mash out at 76-78c?

Raising the temp before pulling the bag out will help dissolve more sugars into solution. Squeezing "can" help extract tannins too.

If your beer is reasonably clear when chilled, it is reasonably unlikely to be astringency caused by tannins as the tannins would help cause a protein haze.

 

[loco88]

No mash out at 76-78c?

Raising the temp before pulling the bag out will help dissolve more sugars into solution. Squeezing "can" help extract tannins too.

If your beer is reasonably clear when chilled, it is reasonably unlikely to be astringency caused by tannins as the tannins would help cause a protein haze.

Didn't really see the point, thought the mashout was to stop conversion for AG brewers, figured the easiest way for a BIABer to stop conversion was just remove the bag. I feel like I read that somewhere as well, could be wrong. I wouldn't be against trying a mashout, anything seems like an attractive option right now as long as it brings good beer!

Hmm, it's actually not clear. The first 2 disasters were definitely quite cloudy, the third was slightly less so but not clear by any stretch.

 

[earle]

Mashout is also helpful in BIAB to 'loosen' the sugars so they drain out more easily. This is helpful in BIAB because we don't sparge.

There are opinions on both sides about squeezing releasing tannins. I'm firmly on the side who don't believe this. I squeeze as firmly as I can but without the mechanical advantage of saucepan lids or the tennis raquet squeezer someone posted here. I've never noticed tannin astringency in my beers nor has anyone else who has tasted my beers, this includes local beer club and case swaps so reasonably educated opinions.

 

[Bribie G]

Tannins are more of a pH thing that can occur from oversparging; commercial breweries such as Coopers sparge sensibly but then squeeze the feck out of their mashed husks using hydraulic "mash filters" that resemble arrays of enormous BIAB bags to get the last possible drop of wort out and there's no astringency problem.

I'd be looking at infection, personally.

I usually mashout (BIAB 40L urn) but fairly lax, often pull the bag at mid 70s.

 

[indica86]

Yeah, infection.
Squeeze the bejeesus out of the bag, some many unused sugars in there.
I do a bucket in bucket 4.5 litre sparge thing while draining over my urn and get 75% + effieciency.

 

[jphowman]

It could be the 5.2
I've heard people that have stopped using it because it made their beer too minerally. What sort of water are you using?

 

[anthonyUK]

I'd also go with a pH issue. That 5.2 cannot possibly work for all water. Do a batch with a known water source e.g bottled/ro if necessary to eliminate this.

 

[Black n Tan]

Five Star 5.2 won't do a cracker fro soft Melbourne water so save your money. You are better off using 1-2% acidulated malt for pale beers. This is from BrunWater

"SPECIAL NOTE: Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. But, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows no effect on pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content is undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper acidification of mashing and sparging water will produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than the use of 5.2 Stabilizer."

 

[GalBrew]

I found that 5.2 ruined my mash efficiency and did not bring my pH into the desired range of 5.2-5.4 using Melbourne water.

 

[labels]

You really need a bunch of experienced brewers to taste your beer to sus out the problem because - as you stated - you're not sure what you're tasting. So that IS the starting point. From there it should be an easily solved problem. I'd take the earlier advice and go to a Melbourne meeting, beer in hand and get as many experienced brewers as possible to sample it.

There's no point in learning the hard way when you don't have to, from my experience brewers are a mighty helpful bunch especially with new brewers or those experiencing problems.

 

[mxd]

ok, chilling what temp do you get down to then pitch at (as your starting I would stick with dry (just my opinion ) ?

What temp are you fermenting at.

What was the kit stuff like ? the same flavour or normal kit flavour ?

Would you consider buying a fwt and just try to fement that to see if the issue is you sanitation/fermenting ?

As you chilling try to get some good o2 in there, could be a shower head/vegie strainer when pouring into fermenter then a big shake/stir.

If you efficiency is low and you don't add some DME or LME then your balance is way out and it will be as bitter as anything.

Melbourne brewers is the last Wednesday of the month in Boronia so not too bad a trip.

Did you buy ground grain ? if so how old is it ?

 

[Blind Dog]

My first step would be to eliminate the 5.2, my second to get experienced Brewers to taste it; it's hard to describe flavours accurately . I'd also be tempted to brew half batches until I had the problem sorted

My gut (and its a big gut) says infection as other than the 5.2 theres nothing you've yet described about you process that differs from what many others do successfully.

(Edit, clarity)

 

[indica86]

Going by Brun water my mash is well above the 5.2 and works well.
The way to go is make beer, Learn what to do. Mash grains, boil wort, add hops. Ferment the fucker.
THEN play with other stuff..

 

[tugger]

Whirlfloc?