Losses To Trub, Advice Needed.

[hazard]

Indeed I found that too, a big kitchen sieve is an excellent trub/ hops filter and use one quite a lot (sometimes a colander) but I pour the whole lot through after kettle- chilling (in a 19L stockpot), so not No- Chilling as per the OP. Using leaf hops (so whole flowers or plugs) is a must though I find, forms quite a decent filter bed which traps much of the break and eventually every drop of wort can be poured through, so really quite efficient. Its also a very simple process, has no exotic or expensive components and so is well- suited to beginners, but actually suits me just fine too. Also, using WhirlFloc or similar seems to get it all aggregating nicely, fairly sure that helps but as ekul says, don't OD on it. I'd like to say I have some pictures of some nice clean wort filtered like this but I don't (task for self...).No, no such harm as far as I'm aware, I leave the wort to cool on the whole lot. Yep, quite right- very efficient and simple recovery of clear wort. B)

Yep, I usually follow same process - pour the whole kettle contents through a sieve into the fermenter. Pellet hops clog up the sieve so leaf hops, as you say, work better. Zero losses to trub with this method, and no need to whirlpool. And a bit of break material in the fermenter is OK according to most modern thinking.

 

[Acasta]

Yeah i used a sieve before, but i really like the clear wort haha. Im thinking my whirfloc addition was too long in the boil. Trying again today.

 

[craigev]

I used to loose about 5L to trub. Then I got a hopblocker and now only loose 2-3L. So, saving 10% of each batch will pay off the cost of the blocker quite quickly.

Only catch is that you need a very wide kettle to accommodate both a wort chiller and the hopblocker - or use a plate chiller. I have a 15 gallon kettle which is just big enough for both.

 

[MHB]

Yep, I usually follow same process - pour the whole kettle contents through a sieve into the fermenter. Pellet hops clog up the sieve so leaf hops, as you say, work better. Zero losses to trub with this method, and no need to whirlpool. And a bit of break material in the fermenter is OK according to most modern thinking.

Only if you think of Nick JD as a leading modern thinker, FFS that's one of the dumbest things I've seen on AHB in a long time.

MHB

 

[Acasta]

Only if you think of Nick JD as a leading modern thinker, FFS that's one of the dumbest things I've seen on AHB in a long time.

MHB

Don't shit in my thread please.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Don't shit in my thread please.

sorry to state the obvious but you brew the nickjd method ( grinder etc..), don't piss on him unless he pissed on u, regardless of some crazy statements!!

 

[MHB]

Don't shit in my thread please.

The people shitting in your thread as you so nicely put it are those giving advice (whether through ignorance, stupidity or sheer tightarsed perversity) that will make your beer worse not better.
There is no amount of Hot Break that will in any way improve your beer; there is well understood researched and proven damage to the flavour, stability and enjoy ability of beer directly linked to increasing amounts of hot break material.
When we brew we always make tradeoffs, a certain amount of loss to trub is just one of the costs of doing business, for me on my system it's about 4% of the knockout wort, and like grain and hops it's something that I budget for when I'm designing a beer.
This is a public forum, you don't own it or the thread, if people hand out bad advice they will get called on it, if you follow it well frankly that's your problem.

MHB

 

[RdeVjun]

IMO: Hot break = bad for beer, cold break = benign, i.e. undesirable however it doesn't seem to have a beer- destroying ability at all as evidenced by NCers, plate chillers and various amateur experiments. Now, kettle- chilling and carefully pouring the whole lot through a sieve or colander with some leaf hops does indeed trap a considerable amount of aggregated break material (nb. both hot and cold), not all of it by a long shot but certainly the majority, while it also maximises wort recovery as a welcome bonus.
An observation: If this simple break material and hops debris filtration method is beset with profound problems, I doubt the beer treated in this way and entered in QABC would've then qualified for AABC and then scored reasonably at both levels, so I wouldn't say the method is better or worse, however in the non- professional competitive arena there wasn't any obvious or attributable penalty. On the other hand though, if I was looking at aspects which may contribute to an overall incremental improvement, them wort filtration is one which I would look at closely and eliminate the potential source of fault as it just doesn't filter completely.

I have a question though: Are there components of hot break material which are soluble at 20C? That's a serious question as I just don't know the answer, apologies for digressing however I feel it is relevant to the thread.

 

[MHB]

I think you have given a very fair and reasonable summation. Hot break material isnt going to instantly transform good beer into bad, but it is definitely one of the many incremental steps on the way. Because the harm from a little isnt perhaps instantly identifiable doesnt mean its good or that a lot wont do harm.

Take Paracetamol its great for a headache too much will kill your liver, even a small amount does liver damage but past a certain dose and the harm gets done faster than it gets repaired and youre in serious trouble. Is Paracetamol good or bad?

Your question, well break material is mostly not very soluble; if it was it wouldnt fall out of the wort. However as the beer ferments there is less Sugar in solution blocking solubility and you start to make alcohol which is a wonderful solvent and yeast will metabolise some of the break material looking for nutrients that will both change the way the yeast works and put products into the beer that we as brewers dont want in there.

I dont think you need to go to ridiculous lengths to eliminate hot break, just take the normal sensible steps to reduce it as far as practicable. If beer coats about $1/L to make Id rather pay $20 for a keg of good beer than $19 for keg of second best.

MHB

 

[manticle]

Who said hot break is good or will improve your beer?

When I first started AG on very primitive equipment I chucked the lot in (through a seive but I'm sure material made it through).

I'm not suggesting this is best practice at all - having improved my equipment and knowledge along the way, I now leave as much hot break shit behind as I can. You can recover lost wort if you need by taking out the trub bit with wort still in it into a different vessel, letting it settle then collecting only the clear wort again or you can just leave it behind as a sacrifice to the beer gods. Generally in my beer now I only have clear wort and both hot and cold break are generally left behind.

However it's a long way from 'a bit of break material is OK in your beer' to hot break will improve your beer which I don't think anyone claimed. Shoot me down if I'm wrong.

 

[MHB]

Hot break material is generally in the order of 30-80 m (0.03-0.08 mm), holes in a sieve what 1-2 mm. If it wasn't for the fact that some hot break material sticks to hop fragments, how much break material do you think a sieve is going to catch?
Recommending using a sieve is recommending adding quite a lot of break material to the fermenter. I'm going to continue arguing that there is no beneficial amount of hot break that you can add to beer, that you will make better beer if you take all practical steps to reduce or eliminate hot break transfer to the fermenter.

I really can't understand why people get so fired up over 1-2 litres of wort, I'm not advocating waste just a focus on making the best beer you can.
MHB

 

[manticle]

Hot break material is generally in the order of 30-80 m (0.03-0.08 mm), holes in a sieve what 1-2 mm. If it wasn't for the fact that some hot break material sticks to hop fragments, how much break material do you think a sieve is going to catch?
Recommending using a sieve is recommending adding quite a lot of break material to the fermenter. I'm going to continue arguing that there is no beneficial amount of hot break that you can add to beer, that you will make better beer if you take all practical steps to reduce or eliminate hot break transfer to the fermenter.

I really can't understand why people get so fired up over 1-2 litres of wort, I'm not advocating waste just a focus on making the best beer you can.
MHB

I agree with the above. I used a sieve a few times early on and certainly don't believe it was an effective hot break catcher. I also used to use two small pots, do two boils with each and use a wood fired weber so you can understand that everything I did was primitive. I'm not advocating repeating what I did.

I also agree that nothing I've read suggests hot break is beneficial (or indeed anything but harmful) to the brew. My own experience says your beer will not automatically die because it gets hot break in it but I still make an effort to keep all of it out and can now easily do so.

I recover a bit of extra wort in a separate vessel to use in my starters - again compromise as I could use malt extract but my understanding is that the yeast will benefit from being grown/started in the same wort as it will be eventually fermenting. I still make an effort to leave all break material behind (which includes settling overnight, boiling again, chilling then racking off the trub).

What I was asking is how you inferred that 'a bit of break material is OK' meant that hot break was in any way beneficial. I think your interpretation of hazard's post was a little unfair. While the post certainly needed clarification, it wasn't (at least as I interpreted) the worst thing anyone has written on this forum.

 

[Tony]

I use a SS mesh insert around the outlet from my kettle. It asts as a kind of false bottom in the kettle. When i drain, i open the valve 100% to get full pipe to the bottom of the fermenter, then shut it off to slow the flow to a few liters a minuite. This, as you can see from the pic below of what i drained just now while reading this thread, stops most of the break material getting through, as the hops form a fantastic filter bed, which the lighter break settles on while chilling.

100% runoff to the fermenter, no crap in the fermenter, problem solved!

cheers

PS.... brew only had 90g of PoR in it. h34r:

ducks for cover

 

[MHB]

It was the "most modern thinking" bit that really annoyed me; it's totally baseless, wrong and misleading.
Anyone who knows anything about brewing can or should in my mind allow that sort of rubbish to go unchallenged. Especially here, AHB is or should be about making beer, hopefully good beer, not about how cheaply you can get maggoted. Which is sadly the focus of most of the conversations hereabouts of late.
Any discussion where the aim is to get volume or to reduce cost, without reference to quality is the opposite of everything I believe in

MHB

 

[Tony]

Any discussion where the aim is to get volume or to reduce cost, without reference to quality is the opposite of everything I believe in

+1

nothing wrong with cutting costs............ but there is always a cost!

 

[manticle]

It was the "most modern thinking" bit that really annoyed me; it's totally baseless, wrong and misleading.
Anyone who knows anything about brewing can or should in my mind allow that sort of rubbish to go unchallenged. Especially here, AHB is or should be about making beer, hopefully good beer, not about how cheaply you can get maggoted. Which is sadly the focus of most of the conversations hereabouts of late.
Any discussion where the aim is to get volume or to reduce cost, without reference to quality is the opposite of everything I believe in

MHB

Again I agree with you on most points. The statement needed qualification and challenging the poster to qualify it makes absolute sense.

Despite being on a constant budget, I also am more interested in making good beer than cheap beer and would rather spend the money that I do have on improving ingredients and process or on qualitative yield rather than quantitative. No issue with that whatsoever.

I just thought you made a bit of a leap (presumably through exasperation) from 'is OK' to 'is good'.

Anyway the ensuing discussion has hopefully made some things a little more clear to people who have read the thread. You've expanded on your original point, RDJVun expanded on his etc and that benefits others.

 

[Acasta]

sorry to state the obvious but you brew the nickjd method ( grinder etc..), don't piss on him unless he pissed on u, regardless of some crazy statements!!

You don't know my system or method. Just because i use a coffee grinder doesn't mean i'm doing 20L brews in a 19L bigW pot does it?

The people shitting in your thread as you so nicely put it are those giving advice (whether through ignorance, stupidity or sheer tightarsed perversity) that will make your beer worse not better.
There is no amount of Hot Break that will in any way improve your beer; there is well understood researched and proven damage to the flavour, stability and enjoy ability of beer directly linked to increasing amounts of hot break material.
When we brew we always make tradeoffs, a certain amount of loss to trub is just one of the costs of doing business, for me on my system it's about 4% of the knockout wort, and like grain and hops it's something that I budget for when I'm designing a beer.
This is a public forum, you don't own it or the thread, if people hand out bad advice they will get called on it, if you follow it well frankly that's your problem.

MHB

I have no problem with any advice you or anyone has to offer, its just i see alot of threads shoot off topic with this issue being raised.

+1

nothing wrong with cutting costs............ but there is always a cost!

I'm interested in your design, could you please show me a few more pics of it?

 

[RdeVjun]

Hot break material is generally in the order of 30-80 m (0.03-0.08 mm), holes in a sieve what 1-2 mm. If it wasn't for the fact that some hot break material sticks to hop fragments, how much break material do you think a sieve is going to catch?

I try not to criticise something unless I've tried it for myself or observed someone else doing it, you evidently haven't done either in this case whereas I have- and I say it traps sufficient break, I just don't have a picture, if I knew it was going to be such a drama I would have thousands...
You're obviously not prepared to take my word for it, or any others that have put their hand up reporting good results. FFS, you're obviously not prepared to take the word of the state and national judges either, if they're not acceptable as a barometer of beer quality then I don't know what is any more.

I really can't understand why people get so fired up over 1-2 litres of wort, I'm not advocating waste just a focus on making the best beer you can.

I'm actually not getting fired up over the few litres of wort, no, what I've been doing is trying to help novice brewers with a process for getting into all- grain brewing sooner than they otherwise would without compromising quality, I think that's a worthwhile thing. It means they can skip any kettle mods and try all- grain with cheap and off- the- shelf components, translating into less risk as well. Cheaper and less risk means more novice brewers try all- grain, which is probably a good result for everyone, retailers included.

 

[MarkBastard]

I find the best way to learn about brewing is to try things the 'wrong' way from time to time and see if you notice a difference.

The worst that can happen is a bad batch which isn't the end of the world.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I try not to criticise something unless I've tried it for myself or observed someone else doing it, you evidently haven't done either in this case whereas I have- and I say it traps sufficient break, I just don't have a picture, if I knew it was going to be such a drama I would have thousands...
You're obviously not prepared to take my word for it, or any others that have put their hand up reporting good results. FFS, you're obviously not prepared to take the word of the state and national judges either, if they're not acceptable as a barometer of beer quality then I don't know what is any more.

I'm actually not getting fired up over the few litres of wort, no, what I've been doing is trying to help novice brewers with a process for getting into all- grain brewing sooner than they otherwise would without compromising quality, I think that's a worthwhile thing. It means they can skip any kettle mods and try all- grain with cheap and off- the- shelf components, translating into less risk as well. Cheaper and less risk means more novice brewers try all- grain, which is probably a good result for everyone, retailers included.

I have tried it though - and what i found is

Any sort of seive - be it a bag or a hard seive does one of two things when you pour wort through them.

Its either not fine enough and lets almost all of the break material through, or it is fine enough & clogs up almost instantly & the wort that goes through is clear, but it takes hours to drain. Just a "sieve" is basically useless for break separation.

A sieve with hop flowers in it is a different story, then it becomes essentially a hopback and works perfectly well, still not lightning fast, but a proven and quite traditional method of trub separation if you are careful about your technique.

Fairly large surface area seives in the bottom of kettles seem to be an exception - like Tony's rig. The pellet hops form the actual filter bed, and there is enough surface area and pressure differential to make the wort come out in a reasonable period of time. I never managed to make it work very well for me... But other people seem to. Tony knows what he's doing and if he can make it work, it works. You just have to keep on tweaking till you get a result.

The way i read his posts, is that MHB (who knows perfectly well that hopbacks work for this purpose) has in fact been fundamentally agreeing with you RdeVjun - he has been disagreeing with people who are simply saying that pouring your wort through a sieve will do the job properly - it wont, you know it wont and said as much, MHB knows it wont and said as much.