Les the Weizguy: Help with Erdinger clone

[thuperman]

I am particularly seeking out Les but would much appreciate any help that people can give me.

I have a question about the following recipe that Les posted, but wasn't sure if I should bring back from the dead a thread that hasn't been touched in 5.5 years.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/28987-erdinger-clone/?p=402164

Start with about 10 litres of water in the pot and bring to the boil. Remove from heat and add about a kilo of the DME (wheat or barley, shouldn't make a difference), and dissolve. Return to the heat and recommence the boil. Be careful to dial in the boil to avoid boil-overs, as this will be on the stove-top for 90 minutes. I was just thinking that you could use the original hop quantities if you choose to add as FWH (in the cold water, as it heats). It's up to you - maybe next time?
Add the remaining DME (off the heat) in the last 5 or 10 minutes of the boil.
The advantage of the DME limited quantity boil, is that you can cool in a laundry sink or bathtub of cold water.
The recipe:

Erdinger Clone (Extract for cdbrown)
Brew Type: Extract Date: 18-01-09
Style: Weizen/Weissbier Brewer: Seth
Batch Size: 23.00 L Assistant Brewer: cdbrown
Boil Volume: 14.0 L Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (approx 4 Gallon)

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.00 kg Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 62.5 %
1.20 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 37.5 %
9.00 gm Perle [8.00%] (90 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (90 min) Hops 6.4 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (45 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 1.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Starter 600 ml] Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.010 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 13.6 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 19.3 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 % (4.3-5.6 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 %
Actual Calories: 475 cal/l

Notes///

• You could easily use all Wheat DME here, as it's about 60% wheat, so that's close to spot-on
• Although the expected bitterness comes in at 19.3 IBU, that could be expected to be lower due to the smaller volume boil, so it'll be close to the mark.
• Be careful not to exceed 20�C ferment temp, and bottle as soon as the beer is ready. Don't leave it in the vessel too long after ferment is finished. Wheat beer is so suceptible to aceto-bugs.
• Oh, and allow 30% headspace in your fermentor. If you do not have a 30l vessel, consider scaling the recipe back, as this yeast is aaaactive!
• this recipe will get you 90%+ of the flavour of the all-grain recipe
• I reckon you'll enjoy this recipe and come back to make it again (and again).

I made the "Panic Button Hefeweizen" from Homebrew Talk almost two years ago but it turned out like liquid bubblegum. I didn't have temp control at the time and it turned me off creating Weizens as well as extract brewing.

Well, I'm back, have got temp control, now keg instead of bottle, and I'm really keen to make a nice extract hefeweizen.

Firstly, would it make much difference if I used a dry yeast - WB06 instead of W3068? I have never done a yeast starter before but a mate has offered his stirplate for me to borrow.

Any other modifications that you've made to the recipe recently?

Thanks for all the help (sorry that it's long-winded)!

 

[Weizguy]

G'day thuperman,

I hear good things about WB-06 but I have little experience with it (only used it once). I'd suggest you try the recipe with it, and try again another time with the liquid yeast if the flavours are lacking.

Pretty sure I modified the recipe from the Wheeler and Protz 'Brew Classic European Beers like those you buy'.

Haven't brewed this recently, but maybe it's the right season!

Good luck with this recipe and please report back here.

Les

 

[manticle]

Lez is still around and loves his weizens so I reckon you'll get some good advice from him.
My input though - you will get a different result (not worse/better - that depends on you and your expectations) but different. 3068 is a good hefe yeast.
Fermentation schedule and mash process (latter not relevant in your case) will influence clove/banana balance with 3068.

 

[thuperman]

Thanks guys. I'm really keen to try the 3068, but might stick with the dry yeast for this one. Hobospy and I are having a brew off around Christmas time with some other mates and are trying to push each other outside of the box a little. You can check out how his first attempt at a yeast starter is going here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83470-how-long-to-wait-for-a-yeast-starter-to-kick-in

I'll report back with the results.

 

[thuperman]

Brewed this up this evening as per instructions except that I pitched WB-06 instead of 3068 (incidentally I couldn't find 3068 at the LHBS anyway), and used a copper immersion wort chiller instead of the ice bath. I found that my stove top struggled to maintain a rolling boil towards the end.

Pitched a little high at 27C. Temp control at 18C. SG was 1058. Blowoff tube connected.

Will report back in a few weeks.

 

[mr_wibble]

It would be an interesting experiment for you to brew the same recipe with '3068.

For me WB06 Vs 3068 is chalk and cheese.

 

[thuperman]

It would be an interesting experiment for you to brew the same recipe with '3068.

For me WB06 Vs 3068 is chalk and cheese.

Yeah, I'm definitely keen to try the same recipe with 3068. My mate is acting as Guinea pig with liquid yeast and a starter.

Anyone with WB06 experience think 18C will get too much clove? Last time I used it I didn't have temp control, it got hot one day and I ended up with bubblegum beer. Tasted terrible!

 

[thuperman]

The other interesting thing was the SG of 1059 after mixing up to 23L. Higher than Les' predicted 1051.

 

[thuperman]

Update for those of you playing at home...

The WB-06 went mental over the first night. Krausen was quite high but not quite high enough to end up in my blow off tube. Since then, the activity has been seemingly non-existent (no - I have not been checking the SG, yes - I realise that a lack of bubbling does not mean that it is not still fermenting). Does this sound normal? I've swapped over to a standard airlock. Still sitting at 18C.

 

[thuperman]

I generally leave my brews 3 weeks in the primary before kegging to allow for the yeast to clean up after itself. Anyone recommend kegging this one after two (assuming constant SG over 48 hours) given Les' comment below?

3. Be careful not to exceed 20�C ferment temp, and bottle as soon as the beer is ready. Don't leave it in the vessel too long after ferment is finished. Wheat beer is so suceptible to aceto-bugs.

Also, there seems to be a lot of debate about whether to cold crash a hefe. Best to leave it out with this recipe?

 

[Weizguy]

The Germans do it, but I usually don't.

If you feel like it, and have time, go for it.

If not, probably still good

 

[thuperman]

Thanks Les.

You mentioned not to leave it in the vessel too long after the ferment is finished. Does this mean that there is no need to let the yeast clean up after itself as I would normally do with other styles?

Sorry for the 20 questions. I love a good wheat beer.

 

[Weizguy]

Always good to perform a diacetyl rest. I have not enjoyed a few butterscotch weizens.

You can leave it in the vessel. I was more concerned about leaving at ambient temp.

Cold condition to drop the yeast or not.
Add lager yeast to bottle condition or not.
If bottling, and using up to 4.0 vol CO2, ALWAYS use strong bottles!

 

[thuperman]

I used WB06 instead of W3068, so I assume that no diacetyl rest is required.

I think I'll leave the cold crash decision down to whether I have the time / can be bothered.

As for how long to leave it in the fermentor, that might come down to when I have time to keg it, given that your main concern seems to be related to leaving it at ambient temps rather than the actual time it's left after fermentation is complete.

Yes, and I will be kegging it, not bottling.

Thanks again!

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I used WB06 instead of W3068, so I assume that no diacetyl rest is required.

I think I'll leave the cold crash decision down to whether I have the time / can be bothered.

As for how long to leave it in the fermentor, that might come down to when I have time to keg it, given that your main concern seems to be related to leaving it at ambient temps rather than the actual time it's left after fermentation is complete.

Yes, and I will be kegging it, not bottling.

Thanks again!

Diacetyl is a function of yeast, not liquid yeast only. I've never had it in a hef, but you shouldn't assume.

If you can, try bottling a few. Personally, I find the refermentation adds a more complex flavour. Always interested to see what others think.

 

[thuperman]

Diacetyl is a function of yeast, not liquid yeast only. I've never had it in a hef, but you shouldn't assume.

I've never done a d-rest before. What temperature should I be resting an ale yeast at if my fermentor has been sitting at 18C?

An article in BYO written by Christopher White suggests just giving it an extra day or two at fermentation temp:
"For ale production, the fermentation temperature is usually 65° to 70° F, so temperature modification is not necessary. But the fermentation should still be “rested” at this temperature for two days to ensure proper diacetyl reduction."

A pdf by fermentis suggests actually decreasing the temp for a day:
"Decrease temperature from 20°C (68°F) to 16-17°C (60-62°F) for 24 hours"

If you can, try bottling a few. Personally, I find the refermentation adds a more complex flavour. Always interested to see what others think.

Thanks for the tip, No-Tip. I usually get two bottles out once the kegs has been filled but I might grab a few more based on this suggestion. :beer:

 

[Weizguy]

Yeah, just a couple of extra days at ambient should clear the diacetyl.
Even if you drop the temp a couple of degrees, the yeast will still be active. Perhaps the temp decrease discourages negative impacts from bacterial growth.

 

[thuperman]

Sweet. Just lowered it from 18 to 16 (can't hurt). Will either keg and bottle in two days or child crash for a further few days.

 

[verysupple]

A pdf by fermentis suggests actually decreasing the temp for a day:
"Decrease temperature from 20°C (68°F) to 16-17°C (60-62°F) for 24 hours"

I've never heard anything about reducing temp for a diacetyl rest, in fact I've always heard the oposite - that you should either maintain the temp or let it rise but definitely not let it drop. The theory being that yeast are more active at higher temps and will get the job done faster. That's one of the reasons lagers take longer to mature.

So I had a look at the document and it definitely says to decrease the temp. I wonder what the reasoning is?

EDIT: The plot below is interesting. It's for a lager fermentation and it indicates a rapid decline in diacetyl when the temp is raised to about 14 C from 12 C. But I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the gravity is close to terminal and more and more yeast are processing non-sugar compounds at that stage of the fermentation.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I've never heard anything about reducing temp for a diacetyl rest, in fact I've always heard the oposite - that you should either maintain the temp or let it rise but definitely not let it drop. The theory being that yeast are more active at higher temps and will get the job done faster. That's one of the reasons lagers take longer to mature.

So I had a look at the document and it definitely says to decrease the temp. I wonder what the reasoning is?

EDIT: The plot below is interesting. It's for a lager fermentation and it indicates a rapid decline in diacetyl when the temp is raised to about 14 C from 12 C. But I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the gravity is close to terminal and more and more yeast are processing non-sugar compounds at that stage of the fermentation.

Yeah, I don't know WTF fermentis are on about. I'd suspect it was a typo if it wasn't consistent in a couple points.

I've always thought of fermentation as a party. If you just keep drinking, the party will end, but you probably passed out without cleaning up. If you take a bunch of cocaine, you probably won't be able to get to sleep and end up doing a speed clean at 4am. And...um...raising the yeast temp stimulates them like cocaine, or something....