Les the Weizguy: Help with Erdinger clone

[thuperman]

Arrrrghhhhh!!

Keg / bottled this Friday night and gave it a try on Saturday night... Bubblegum again!!!

Devastated!

I don't know what I have done to this yeast for it to hate me so.

Fermented at 18C, weird Fermentis suggested D-rest at 16C for 2 or 3 days, Cold crashed at 2C for 3 days.

 

[hobospy]

Not half as devastated as I am mate!! :-D.

 

[thuperman]

At least twice as devastated. I now have used WB-06 twice and have two batches of bubblegum beer. I'd offer it to the 5 year old next door if it wasn't alcoholic.

Anyone else had so much trouble with this yeast? Maybe I can try it with Mango juice like they do at the Lowenbrau.

 

[droid]

~ the yeast has gotten into an orgy it has produced a lot of diacetyl from the high initial temp
~ until it has essentially dropped off from dropping the temp down and not enough yeast was left to clean up the diacteyl
~ not much yeast left will produce esters in the ferment
~ the diacetyl will also produce esters when bottled (not sure with kegging)
~ not aerating the wort will produce esters

making a yeast starter with dried yeast or liquid
cool wort quickly
aerate the wort when it is cooled (pouring from bucket to bucket will do it)
pitch at your desired ferment temp (eg - yeast is 20deg, the wort is 20deg and the ferment temp is 20deg)

yours sincerely
the bubblegum beer king

 

[jasonmac72]

I'm sorry to hear I'll be drinking bubblegum beer at the brewoff. -_-

Third time lucky!

 

[thuperman]

~ the yeast has gotten into an orgy it has produced a lot of diacetyl from the high initial temp
~ until it has essentially dropped off from dropping the temp down and not enough yeast was left to clean up the diacteyl
~ not much yeast left will produce esters in the ferment
~ the diacetyl will also produce esters when bottled (not sure with kegging)
~ not aerating the wort will produce esters

making a yeast starter with dried yeast or liquid
cool wort quickly
aerate the wort when it is cooled (pouring from bucket to bucket will do it)
pitch at your desired ferment temp (eg - yeast is 20deg, the wort is 20deg and the ferment temp is 20deg)

yours sincerely
the bubblegum beer king

So, the pitching at 27C killed me, even though it would have been down to ~18C within two hours?

Bugger! I miscalculated how cool that I need to get the wort before mixing with tap water.

Next time will pitch at fermentation temp. If I miss it again, can I use the temp-controlled fermentation fridge (for an hour or two) to get the wort to the desired temp before pitching the yeast? Is the consequence a chance of infection due to no CO2 layer above the wort?

Finally, is there anything that I can do to salvage this batch? Pitch some more yeast and leave at ambient temps for a D-rest? Chew some Hubba Bubba before drinking it so that, relatively, it doesn't taste so bad?

 

[Weizguy]

I'm sure that the outside of the vessel may have been down to 18°C in two hours, but what of the core of wort? Do you have a thermowell thermometer?

Having said that, I find it quite acceptable to cool the wort in the sanitised and sealed fermentor for an overnight chilling, prior to pitching.

I have not been blessed/cursed with the bubblegum character for a while, so cannot comment about it.

Best not to share wheat beer with kids. They will get a taste for it, and that can only lead to, umm, beer appreciation?

 

[droid]

So, the pitching at 27C killed me, even though it would have been down to ~18C within two hours?

I could be wrong plenty of other people are saying so in the urgent help thread, I seem to be the only one having an issue with temp drops directly after yeast pitching - all I can say is that there will be no thermal shocking if the yeast is pitched from a starter at the same temp, having always pitched high and nearly always getting that bubblegummy sort of flavour, when i never aerated the wort and I pitched yeast too warm

Bugger! I miscalculated how cool that I need to get the wort before mixing with tap water

Next time will pitch at fermentation temp. If I miss it again, can I use the temp-controlled fermentation fridge (for an hour or two) to get the wort to the desired temp before pitching the yeast? Is the consequence a chance of infection due to no CO2 layer above the wort?.

I put mine in the fridge (temp controlled) let it get down to the temp overnight with the lid and airlock on, I get up in the morning and aerate the wort pouring into a big pot and back into the fermenter a few times then add the yeast, no problems but this is what cubing is good for too, because there is less headspace, however I cool my beer from the stove down to 30 or so in a short time

Finally, is there anything that I can do to salvage this batch? Pitch some more yeast and leave at ambient temps for a D-rest? Chew some Hubba Bubba before drinking it so that, relatively, it doesn't taste so bad?

lol when you work that out let me know, I think this is a really interesting area and I have not seen much speak about it. maybe people don't want to admit to screwing up - that's a no brainer really isn't it? maybe people give up

it may be even worth doing some small batches, I can do 5ltrs, try a few different ways to save it, on the urgent thread my thought would have been to cold crash, rack out of fermenter off the yeast layer, bring back up to ferment temp, aerate then re-pitch

we might be able to take beer to bubblegum and back again! lol

 

[manticle]

No. Don't aerate finished beer. Active yeast can help reduce diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Pretty sure it won't change esters or phenolics.
While droid may be correct about the higher temps leading to bubblegum, I have not heard of diacetyl creating esters (different chemical pathways involved for a start).
I agree with pitching close to intended ferment temps. Try changing yeast to 3068.

 

[droid]

on the urgent thread my thought would have been to cold crash, rack out of fermenter off the yeast layer, bring back up to ferment temp, aerate then re-pitch

not about this thread

well i did not "hear" about diacetyl but rather read it yesterday while researching about pitching yeast too high and then dropping temps too quick, esters and the like

I will try to find the reference I thought it was in John Palmers book, it was a book on beer, so I figure they know what they are talking about

 

[manticle]

Regardless of which thread, aerating beer once fermentation is underway is a bad idea.

 

[droid]

sorry thuperman for this ****

right, forums huh? vs palmer, hieronymous and Strachan - hmmn they talk to people who have actually done the stuff they're talking about, good stuff

I will allow you to put the link up thanks Mr, that'll be for the other thread.

have you pitched a 1010 yeast over its highest temp boundary of 23 degrees by 2 degrees? you let it go for a day at that temp dropped the temp down to 20, fermented it for how long, racked it, dry hopped it? and whatevered it?

you then did another 25 degree batch and left it at 25, everything else the same? wow!

you then did another but crashed it, racked it, brought it back up to temp and aerated it, re-pitched and left it at the perfect temp

it was worse than the other two was it?

bravo

 

[manticle]

What? Chill out brother. You are making little sense and are being defensive for no reason.
It is well established that aerating fermenting beer is a bad idea - if you have evidence to the contrary, please enlighten.
I am unsure about your diacetyl = esters reference (actually reasonably sure it's something you misread) but again - you made the statement, you provide the evidence.
In the mean time - relax. I'm discussing brewing, not spoiling for a rumble.

 

[thuperman]

I'm sure that the outside of the vessel may have been down to 18°C in two hours, but what of the core of wort? Do you have a thermowell thermometer?

Having said that, I find it quite acceptable to cool the wort in the sanitised and sealed fermentor for an overnight chilling, prior to pitching.

I have not been blessed/cursed with the bubblegum character for a while, so cannot comment about it.

Best not to share wheat beer with kids. They will get a taste for it, and that can only lead to, umm, beer appreciation?

Fair point, although I didn't think there would be a huge difference in temp between the outer and middle parts of the wort. I don't use a thermowell, just insulate against the side of the vessel.

At 6.5%, I agree that it's best to keep this one away from the kiddies.

I could be wrong plenty of other people are saying so in the urgent help thread, I seem to be the only one having an issue with temp drops directly after yeast pitching - all I can say is that there will be no thermal shocking if the yeast is pitched from a starter at the same temp, having always pitched high and nearly always getting that bubblegummy sort of flavour, when i never aerated the wort and I pitched yeast too warm

I put mine in the fridge (temp controlled) let it get down to the temp overnight with the lid and airlock on, I get up in the morning and aerate the wort pouring into a big pot and back into the fermenter a few times then add the yeast, no problems but this is what cubing is good for too, because there is less headspace, however I cool my beer from the stove down to 30 or so in a short time


lol when you work that out let me know, I think this is a really interesting area and I have not seen much speak about it. maybe people don't want to admit to screwing up - that's a no brainer really isn't it? maybe people give up

it may be even worth doing some small batches, I can do 5ltrs, try a few different ways to save it, on the urgent thread my thought would have been to cold crash, rack out of fermenter off the yeast layer, bring back up to ferment temp, aerate then re-pitch

we might be able to take beer to bubblegum and back again! lol

Brewing another batch now, will stick it in the fridge overnight if I cannot get it down to fermenting temp tonight. And I'll let you know if I can save it. So far, thinking of letting it get warm and hoping that whatever yeast is left in there might do a bit of a D-rest.

No. Don't aerate finished beer. Active yeast can help reduce diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Pretty sure it won't change esters or phenolics.
While droid may be correct about the higher temps leading to bubblegum, I have not heard of diacetyl creating esters (different chemical pathways involved for a start).
I agree with pitching close to intended ferment temps. Try changing yeast to 3068.

Plan has always been to try this recipe with 3068 next. Was hoping to have a fair comparison of WB06 to use. Doesn't look like that's going to happen.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Try a stress pitch at 12 or 13 degrees, ranking to 18 or so over four days. Makes for the best Hefs IMO.

 

[thuperman]

I won't have much control over temp now that it's in the keg. I took it out of the keezer last night and it's currently sitting in the garage.

Plan was to pitch half a pack of US05 tonight, purge the air, leave for roughly 4 days at ambient temp (could get warm in Sydney), throw it back in the keezer (set to 3C).

Does this sound OK or which fundamental rules of brewing would this destroy?

 

[thuperman]

OK, after a bit of reading, I'm now considering not pitching anymore yeast just yet. I think I'll just let it warm up for ~4 days and then cool and taste again. If that doesn't work, I might think about the yeast again.

I was also surprised to read that people actually aim for the bubblegum flavour. I certainly didn't enjoy it.

Side note: Can anyone suggest a commercial weissbier that is high in banana and another that is high in clove? I might have to do a side-by-side comparison before I brew my next hefe.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Side note: Can anyone suggest a commercial weissbier that is high in banana and another that is high in clove? I might have to do a side-by-side comparison before I brew my next hefe.

To me a good hef should be balanced so that neither dominates, to the point that a novice mightn't pick the banana and wouldn't pick the clove without it being pointed out. That said, they'll all have their different takes. Rather than have someone hand you a bottle and say 'this ones nana', get yourself a Schofferhoffer, an Erdinger, a Franziskaner and a Paulaner and compare them blind yourself. Which do you like? Does it have one flavour more dominant?

 

[thuperman]

To me a good hef should be balanced so that neither dominates, to the point that a novice mightn't pick the banana and wouldn't pick the clove without it being pointed out. That said, they'll all have their different takes. Rather than have someone hand you a bottle and say 'this ones nana', get yourself a Schofferhoffer, an Erdinger, a Franziskaner and a Paulaner and compare them blind yourself. Which do you like? Does it have one flavour more dominant?

I was going to do this the last time I was at Dan's but didn't have time to browse. I'll make a trek there soon. I was going to add Weihenstephaner to that list. I should say that I have tried all of these but wasn't exactly analysing them.

 

[droid]

@manticle

apologies, it was a long day of reading and forum searching, it seems people sometimes jump on the bandwagon, drinking the cool-aid so to speak and yeah anyway

I cant find the text, not even the site, I thought I read that when the temp is high too <edit) high a lot of diacetyl is produced, then if the temp is dropped esters are produced then if it is bottled with a lot of diacetyl the sugar reacts creating more esters which I thought shared some relationship with the diacetyl

anyway, sorry - onwards and upwards