Late Hopping And Nochilling It Can Be Done!

[[email protected]]

MB the method of doing it with the original wort is the way to go IMO. Thereby conserving the original profile. A schott bottle or similar would be fine i guess. Just need to keep the small volume to the side while the large volume cools to the target temp... something like a small NC cube.

Argon,

Could you not simply cool the whole cube (23L) to 4 C as per your method, then when you add the wort to the fermenter take 3L from the fermenter tap (or directly poured from cube) and raise this to the boil, add hops and add to fermenter to get fermentation temperatures. Why do you need to keep a separate sample?

I generally air rate with an aquarium pump which takes an hour and figure you could do the aroma hop while this is going on.

 

[argon]

Argon,

Could you not simply cool the whole cube (23L) to 4 C as per your method, then when you add the wort to the fermenter take 3L from the fermenter tap (or directly poured from cube) and raise this to the boil, add hops and add to fermenter to get fermentation temperatures. Why do you need to keep a separate sample?

I generally air rate with an aquarium pump which takes an hour and figure you could do the aroma hop while this is going on.

Yep i reckon this could be done easily enough... just for me I've always been of the opinion that i want to get the active yeast into the wort as soon as possible after opening the cube... but i guess 20-30 mins even and hour isn't too bad.

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, I was of the same opinion to get the yeast into the wort as soon as possible but then heard a talk from Chris White saying that you should pitch the yeast after your aeration is complete for optimum fermentation. Can't remember what he said the consequences were by pitching before you started aeration.

 

[MarkBastard]

What if your aeration technique is to just pour the cube into the fermenter?

Judging by the froth I reckon that works just fine.

Understood though if you ferment in the cube or carefully rack from cube to fermenter.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yep i reckon this could be done easily enough... just for me I've always been of the opinion that i want to get the active yeast into the wort as soon as possible after opening the cube... but i guess 20-30 mins even and hour isn't too bad.

Remember that in your case, the cube is at 4C - not a lot of infection action going to happen at that temperature. Your fridge would be a lousy place to keep food if there was.

I'd think about taking a few liters from your cooled cube, raising to boiling for your hopping routine, and taking the opportunity of a few liters of space in your cube to shake the shit out of it... The cold wort will absorb a lot more oxygen than the warmer wort... You will be at room pressure saturation point after you put the warm wort back in... So as good as you could possibly get really.

 

[argon]

Remember that in your case, the cube is at 4C - not a lot of infection action going to happen at that temperature. Your fridge would be a lousy place to keep food if there was.

I'd think about taking a few liters from your cooled cube, raising to boiling for your hopping routine, and taking the opportunity of a few liters of space in your cube to shake the shit out of it... The cold wort will absorb a lot more oxygen than the warmer wort... You will be at room pressure saturation point after you put the warm wort back in... So as good as you could possibly get really.

Good point TB... at 4C nasties would be inhibited quite nicely. Then adding the boiling portion to the cool portion brings it up to correct pitching temp... in goes the yeast, beautiful!

I'll do this soon for the second half of the BIPA i have cubed. Added bonus of not adding extract too.

 

[insane_rosenberg]

Used this process for two batches in a row now and thought it was safe to report back on.

The process as I did it:
1. Boil wort with bittering hops (+15 mins if traditional chiller recipe)
2. Cube as usual
3. Once down to room-ish temperature place cube in the fridge (I use a jerry can so it fits nicely)
4. When cube properly chilled (4 C), syphon ~4L into a large pot (or your urn/kettle if SWMBO doesn't like your aromas)
5. Syphon the rest of the cube into the fermenter and cling wrap
6. Boil the small portion with the flavour and aroma hops at the usual intervals
7. Strain into the fermenter, stir vigourously, pitch yeast

Key points:
* Make sure you can agitate your wort after adding the boiled portion. Both times I have experienced severe temperature layering, with the posibility of the hot wort being detrimental to your yeast.

Tasting:
Tastes pretty good. Only tasted the first batch which was Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale II. I have read that this beer (and Amarillo in general) does not handle no-chilling very well. But this process yields a good result with no off flavours. Thanks for sharing the idea Argon!

 

[davelovesbeer]

off topic, but any reason why you cool the cube to 4c instead of say 20c?

 

[peted27]

off topic, but any reason why you cool the cube to 4c instead of say 20c?

so when he adds the 3L back in at boiling, it equalises at pitching temps. or there abouts

 

[argon]

Yep precisely... Chilling the 17L to 4C then adding the 3L of boiling liquid brings it to 18C = pitchng temp. Also adding the hot hop tea to a cool body of wort ceases the utilization immediately and locks in the flavour and aroma. If I chilled only to 20c then added the boiling fraction it would be way too hit to pitch the yeast.

The black ipa I first did this on is incredible. I honestly just hold the pint under my nose just breathing in the aroma in between sips.... Soooo good.

 

[Bribie G]

Bump

Argon
In light of the other similar thread that has been started, how did you eventually go with your experiment?
In the meantime I have been cube hopping most of my brews where aroma required (e.g. APAs ) and getting good results, haven't used the French Press for yonks.

:icon_cheers:

 

[argon]

Bump

Argon
In light of the other similar thread that has been started, how did you eventually go with your experiment?
In the meantime I have been cube hopping most of my brews where aroma required (e.g. APAs ) and getting good results, haven't used the French Press for yonks.

:icon_cheers:

I first did it on the Black IPA tasting notes here

It came out with the biggest aroma i've ever experienced. I cube hop most of my beers and get pretty good results... but it certainly was a big difference in this one. (saying that, i did cube hop with 60g of Cascade/Chinook/Centennial mix so it was going to be good anyway)

The second cube of the BIPA is on tap now. I French pressed this one with 60g NZ Cascade and 30g Chinook pellets after i crash chilled. It doesn't quite have the big aroma of the first half but still very good.

I've since French pressed 2 other beers and they came out with some good aroma... but not quite as big as a small boil added to chilled wort.

I think for future brews, if i have pellets i'll do a hop boil. If i have flowers or plugs i'll do a French press. After all one of the aims of the experiment was to rapidly chill the hop compounds to lock in as much aroma as possible. I think i've definitely achieved that, through both the hop boil and the french press.

 

[big78sam]

I tried this myself but had a brain fade. So don't do this...

I had a starter that had fully fermented out so I poured off all the liquid leaving just the trub. I boiled 2L of wort from the cube with the hops for my late additions. Then poured the hot wort in to the fermenter first and started to add the cold. Half way through I realised I'd need to add some wort to my starter to get the yeast out of the PET bottle. So I added wort from the cube that was at 11 degrees, then realised that the cold wort would shock the yeast. I quickly shook it up and pitched into the fermenter. On doing this I realised that the wort in the fermenter would be too hot as I hadn't added all the cold wort to get it down to 18. So quickly poured in the rest of the wort.

Hopefully I haven't affected the yeast too much with a big cold shock followed by a warm shock. It bubbled away slowly for a few days but has stopped now. I'll have to take an SG reading and see where I'm at. What I should have done was mixed the wort fully then taking some 18 degree wort into the PET from the tap then pitched. Hopefully it will turn out OK in the end.

 

[Bribie G]

Sounds like the sort of thing I'd do
Last night I put my first batch using the argon method into CC - an APA with late Cascade, and it smells like the Sierra Nevada factory on a busy day :icon_drool2:

 

[wrath]

What if your aeration technique is to just pour the cube into the fermenter?

Judging by the froth I reckon that works just fine.

Understood though if you ferment in the cube or carefully rack from cube to fermenter.

Slightly OT, but is this sufficient for aeration? This is how I will generally do it but had been wondering.

 

[Bribie G]

Slightly OT, but is this sufficient for aeration? This is how I will generally do it but had been wondering.

:icon_offtopic:

Having read the "Yeast" book I now give my wort a good thrashing with a slotted spoon the next morning, to provide a second dose of oxygen.

 

[argon]

Last night i took a sample from a carbed keg of a Rye ESB where i employed this method. Fantastic!... a huge improvement on the first half of the double batch i did.

I steeped some pale english crystal then boiled with a few styrian plugs, before adding to the chilled cube. The added complexity really brings it up into a proper ESB territory. Lovely malt aroma with some nice late styrian on the nose. I also used a more malty yeast and left it unfiltered to leave a much richer flavour.

The reason i did this is that when i entered this beer in the BABBs mini-comp as an ESB i got a few comments back suggesting that it would go better as a Standard Bitter and needed a touch more malt aroma and flavour, with a higher hop aroma to sit firmly as an ESB. And to be honest i was never really that happy with how the first half turned out.

So I think i achieved all of the above, just by using this one simple method that probably took about 45mins to achieve. I really love having the ability to tweak the second half of a batch based on feedback. I think this will definitely improve my brewing skills alot quicker than if i had to rebrew to see the results.

 

[Bribie G]

Bringing some to BABBs next Thursday?

I've already done a couple of lagers for this years comps rounds and used la methode argonoise :icon_chickcheers: on both. This morning I gave the Pale Continental Lager its second thrashing/ oxygenation before sealing up under a new sheet of clingwrap and locking it away at 10 degrees for a fortnight for primary. It's got 47 g CZ Saaz, ten minute addition done post-cube.

Whilst tidying it up I sniffed the discarded first piece of clingwrap - it smelled exactly like sniffing a bottle of finest Euro lager from Dans :icon_drool2:
Can't wait for this one.

BTW if I haven't posted here already, here's a calculator for mixing cold and hot liquids. In most instances if using 2 or 3 litres out of the cube for late boiling you really have to get way down to under about 9 degrees for the bulk of the wort, to hit strike temperatures. In the case of the lagers I was perhaps a bit underpitching on yeast , so pitched at around 18 degrees and have been working it down to 10 over 2 days, so it's working to my advantage. :icon_cheers:

Edit: the APA I mentioned above will be at BABBs as well in the minicomp.

 

[argon]

Bringing some to BABBs next Thursday?

yeah i'll bring a bottle for sampling, although it may not be that clear as yeast is still settling in the keg... would love to give it another score against the ESB specs just to see the difference, so might grab a sheet and give it a shot myself. I'll bring in the Black IPA for a sampling too.

Edit: the APA I mentioned above will be at BABBs as well in the minicomp.

I'll be bringing my LFPA in...but probably only for comments, as i'm not all that happy with this batch... don't think it'll stand up against the likes of a Browndog APA. Got an IPA though that may do ok, based on the hydro sample last night, before i dryhopped at 2g/L.

Edit:

BTW if I haven't posted here already, here's a calculator for mixing cold and hot liquids.

Yeah thanks saw that calculator the other day... handy

 

[Phoney]

I first did it on the Black IPA tasting notes here

That sounds awesome!~

Any chance of a recipe?