Late Hopping And Nochilling It Can Be Done!

[Bribie G]

Slightly OT, I cube hopped for the first time a couple of days ago and on pouring cube into fermenter (EKG) the aroma was sensational. Next time I'll up the recipe by a few percent and collect a couple of 1L Schott bottles extra of wort and also do the late hop thing with that.

 

[argon]

The biggest thing for me with the process was working out that the small addition of very hot water to a large addition of very colder water ended up at the correct temp for pitching.

In the original instance the the extract equates to around 3% of the overall fermentables so it didn't bother me too much to be adding it in. However i can understand that alot don't want to be adding extract to their all grain wort. Especially when it may represent a large proportion.

The idea of taking a couple of litres from the cube for re boiling is appealing to me because it's the same wort composition. On one hand there is a risk of exposing the cube to nasties once opened, albeit only around 30mins. But on the other the wort will be at 4C (cause you've chilled it) and this will inhibit bacteria taking hold.

So on the second cube of the IPA i'll try this out. That is; taking some wort, boiling it with some more hops, then mixing it in the fermenter with the chilled wort... all in order to bring to 18C before adding the starter.

This will achieve 3 things;
1. Adding the late hop flavours and aromas
2. Maintaining the correct wort composition
3. Minimising extract as part of the fermentables in the batch

As i'll be adding Hot 3L to Cold 14L... obviously, i'll have to adjust the calculations to suit the overall temperature target. But in this case i'll just do a top up with pre boiled water at 4C to achieve correct volume, gravity and temp.

 

[argon]

Slightly OT, I cube hopped for the first time a couple of days ago and on pouring cube into fermenter (EKG) the aroma was sensational. Next time I'll up the recipe by a few percent and collect a couple of 1L Schott bottles extra of wort and also do the late hop thing with that.

That was my second thought... just up the volume collected from the kettle and set aside to be doing the late hop boils. Probably what i'l be doing from now on when i want late kettle hop profile.

And FWIW, i almost always cube hop and get great aroma and flavour... just wondering if there is something else that i may be missing out on.

 

[Bribie G]

Argon, off topic but I thought you had gone onto 50L batches? Did you trot the baggie out for this experiment ?

 

[argon]

Argon, off topic but I thought you had gone onto 50L batches? Did you trot the baggie out for this experiment ?

Nope still got he bag hung up next to the little idol Pat... hasn't been used in a while. I will use it as a safety bag when i do a +50% Wheatie or big % Rye beer.

I do 42L batches. I only have a 50L kettle and calculate a 42L start of boil with a 37L end of boil volume losing 3L to kettle trub. So, that is 2 x 17L cubes with a 3L water top up into fermenter for each and and 1L starter. Gives me 21L into 1 a fermenter 2 times. Losing 2L to the fermenter trub = 19L into keg 2 times.

I've just bought a couple of full size cubes and will be adding the top up water at cubing. It's a limitation due to my kettle size, but i've found that it's a fairly simple process to accommodate.

And there's not much better than blowing a keg of beer, then immediately changing over to a keg of the same variety that has had extended cold conditioning time. :icon_cheers:

 

[Bribie G]

WAAAAY off topic, yes I'm going to do my double batch = triple keg overgravity experiment this week when the goods arrive from Ross, and actually the late hopping idea will fit in perfectly to prevent dumbing down the flavours after dilution. B)

 

[argon]

WAAAAY off topic, yes I'm going to do my double batch = triple keg overgravity experiment this week when the goods arrive from Ross, and actually the late hopping idea will fit in perfectly to prevent dumbing down the flavours after dilution. B)

Off topic... who cares?

I'm thinkng of doing the triple batch thing too... a huge batch of BoPils...

when i listened to the Brewing network on over gravity fermentation they suggested that top-ups post fermentation at packaging were best for lagers due to their clean nature as it won't necessarily have an adverse affect on esters etc. (kinda what the big boys in the states do.) For all my ales i do the top-up pre-ferment.

to keep it on topic.... "late hopping"

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The kettle trub may settle out in a sealed container in the fridge just as quick as you could strain it, depending on your method, and just decant it maybe, just a thought.

Off topic, how did you manage to minimise your kettle trub by changing your kettle configuration?

seeing as this thread is well off topic now anyway...


I suppose it wasn't all kettle configuration. Changed from a keggle to a 60L flat bottomed pot, a whirlpool seems t work properly in this pot and it never really did in the keggle.

changed pickup tube so that its opening sits flatter on the bottom of the pot, which seems to draw the current more evenly and stops any streams of fast flow pulling the trub cone to bits

learned to slow the run-off right down once the top of the trub cone breaks the liquid surface to allow the liquid to drain from it without pulling it to bits

reduced my kettle finings use a bit which made for a more stable trub cone.

in the keggle the volume of my trub (hops, break and liquid all together) was 2-2.5L, now its down to about 0.5-1L

 

[cdbrown]

I've seen on HBT that a few have been doing FWH for the normal 10/15m additions. Anybody tried this?

I'm planning two double batches of SNPA and LCPA clone for the summer and of course no chilling the lot. At this stage I'll be moving the 20min to 10, 10 to flame out and anything less to the cube. When it comes to brewing these again I'll try a french press and then perhaps a FWH just to see what works best.

 

[davo4772]

Hello All,

How does it work as far as hop utilisation with throwing the aroma hops into 4L of wort.

Would more hops have to be used in that relatively small amount of wort?

Seems like a good idea, had good results when I used to use fresh wort kits. Same concept as far as I can see.

Cheers


David

 

[argon]

Hello All,

How does it work as far as hop utilisation with throwing the aroma hops into 4L of wort.

Would more hops have to be used in that relatively small amount of wort?

Seems like a good idea, had good results when I used to use fresh wort kits. Same concept as far as I can see.

Cheers


David

Shouldn't be any problems with adding hops to a small boil. The utilisation of course will be dependent on the gravity of your wort... with 1040OG being optimum IIRC

 

[Guysmiley54]

Newb question...

What is FWH?

(sorry h34r: )

 

[cdbrown]

First Wort Hop - basically before you strain draining the first runnings from the mash to the kettle you chuck in the FWH into the kettle. It apparently brings out a different dimension aroma and bitterness of the hops.

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/t...ing-techniques/

 

[felten]

first wort hopping


too slow

 

[Guysmiley54]

That's actually what I thought it might have meant... I am still a little confused though, how would FWH replace a 10 or 15 minute addition? Surely this addition would go through a full boil and lose all aroma and gain maximum isomerization?

 

[argon]

Kegged my BIPA last night and the late hop presence i got from this far exceeds any beer I've done in the past... Got bucket loads of fruity, flowery, Cascade and Centennial with a subtle grassy character and firm grapefruit bitterness coming from the Chinook. Bigger and fuller than I've ever been able to achieve just through no chill and cube hopping.

Hopefully it's because of the mini-boil process. I'll reserve final judgement until carbing and conditioning, but at this stage, I'll be definitely doing this again for future heavy hop styles

 

[MarkBastard]

I'm 50/50 about giving this a go. I'm spewing I threw out a couple of 17L FWK cubes I had laying around.

I'm thinking maybe I could do a 20L batch, fill up 17L into a cube and squeeze the air out as usual then take 1L into a jar and put aside to use as a starter, then with the remaining 2 litres put aside for the hop boil.

Would require 1L and 2L 'jars' of course.

Also probably need to factor in loss to hop absorption so maybe make 21L batch and have 3L for the hop boil.

Seems easy enough. Only issue would be dealing with trub in the kettle. Is there definitely no way to filter trub out other than flowers? God I'd love to be able to leave behind hot break and run off as much wort as possible. I'm tight like that.

 

[argon]

MB the method of doing it with the original wort is the way to go IMO. Thereby conserving the original profile. A schott bottle or similar would be fine i guess. Just need to keep the small volume to the side while the large volume cools to the target temp... something like a small NC cube.

 

[peted27]

For what it is worth, cube hops leave stacks of aroma (YMMV).

+1

I'll stick to cube hopping. While i think this is a good idea, just adds to the complexity. The results i'm getting from adjusting bittering addition times by 15min and moving 10min-0min additions to a single cube addition is not worth the change.

 

[MarkBastard]

I find cube hopping to be a flavour addition. I get SFA aroma from it, but then again cube hopping + dry hopping in the keg is an okay compromise at the moment.

But if I doubt I'd be able to make something like a fresh stone & wood draught ale using this method.